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Ocean baby rescue underway off Mexico

86K views 619 replies 90 participants last post by  smackdaddy 
#1 ·
A U.S. Navy warship reached a crippled sailboat hundreds of kilometres off the Mexican coast and was preparing Sunday to complete the rescue of a sick one-year-old girl.

"...the sailboat, which does not have steering or communication abilities" - this can't be right. According to the article the sailboat takes on water when the engine runs, so "It's now slowly moving using only the sails." Doesn't mention any issue with the rudder etc. I guess that must be another example of journalistic accuracy in action.

I hope all goes well with the transfer, and with the family's voyage.
 
#309 ·
I dont know guys. I think people are really sheep with emotions, that they just act like a mass. They way they crucified this family.... I am not saying they did right. Or wrong. At the end of the day what happened was they lost their boat, and the coast guard and army did their duty and the emergency EPRIB proved to be working safety device!!

Tell me something. Arent u proud that u live in a country that they will go thousands of miles to save a family? If this is not a success i dont know what is. Those are the true values of country that offer protection to their citizens. We should be celebrating now
 
#311 ·
I dont know guys. I think people are really sheep with emotions, that they just act like a mass. They way they crucified this family.... I am not saying they did right. Or wrong. At the end of the day what happened was they lost their boat, and the coast guard and army did their duty and the emergency EPRIB proved to be working safety device!!

Tell me something. Arent u proud that u live in a country that they will go thousands of miles to save a family? If this is not a success i dont know what is. Those are the true values of country that offer protection to their citizens. We should be celebrating now
If you look at the press conference from the rescuers they basically say: 'this is our job.'

They don't say it directly, but the cost of the rescue has already been paid.... If you have a coast guard and their job (in part) is to rescue people [also this is not the furthest they have gone].

Not everyone benefits equally from our taxes, but this is as good a use as any.
 
#315 ·
If you go offshore, much less across an ocean, relying totally on an electric bilge pump, you are woefully unprepared.

No matter what the cause when the SHTF, the batteries or electrical system is almost always the first casualty.

I have a Whale Gusher that will pump 70 gallons in a few minutes mounted such that it can be pumped while steering the boat.

This whole story is about a total lack of preparation, rather than "bad luck".

Leaving on a long passage with sick passengers, especially your own children -- not bad luck.

Not having tested the boat and crew in heavy weather -- not bad luck.

Not having tried and tested a proper preventer and the hardware and attachment points on the boat -- not bad luck.

Not having enough crew to hand steer the boat when automatic systems just won't do or if they fail -- not bad luck.

Not having the ability to pump a mere 70 gallons of water per day manually and easily -- not bad luck.

Not having the ability to temporarily slow a leak of that type -- not bad luck.


Why am I being such an a$$? Several reasons. To start, if they had hit a real Pacific storm, with that level of preparation, they might have been lost, including their innocent children. The sea may not have granted them time for such a rescue.

Secondly, stories like these open the door for the kind of thinking that goes; ocean sailing is so dangerous and rescues cost the taxpayer so much, we should restrict people from doing it without "fill in the blank with a thousand bureaucratic requirements".

As far as this analysis being mean to the poor Kaufman's, they have already collected more than the uninsured boat was worth in donations, and their children are safe and sound. So, all in all it appears that others have fully paid the monetary costs of their poor preparation.

'
 
#318 · (Edited)
If you go offshore, much less across an ocean, relying totally on an electric bilge pump, you are woefully unprepared.

No matter what the cause when the SHTF, the batteries or electrical system is almost always the first casualty.

I have a Whale Gusher that will pump 70 gallons in a few minutes mounted such that it can be pumped while steering the boat.

This whole story is about a total lack of preparation, rather than "bad luck".

Leaving on a long passage with sick passengers, especially your own children -- not bad luck.

Not having tested the boat and crew in heavy weather -- not bad luck.

Not having tried and tested a proper preventer and the hardware and attachment points on the boat -- not bad luck.

Not having enough crew to hand steer the boat when automatic systems just won't do or if they fail -- not bad luck.

Not having the ability to pump a mere 70 gallons of water per day manually and easily -- not bad luck.

Not having the ability to temporarily slow a leak of that type -- not bad luck.

Why am I being such an a$$? Several reasons. To start, if they had hit a real Pacific storm, with that level of preparation, they might have been lost, including their innocent children. The sea may not have granted them time for such a rescue.

Secondly, stories like these open the door for the kind of thinking that goes; ocean sailing is so dangerous and rescues cost the taxpayer so much, we should restrict people from doing it without "fill in the blank with a thousand bureaucratic requirements".

As far as this analysis being mean to the poor Kaufman's, they have already collected more than the uninsured boat was worth in donations, and their children are safe and sound. So, all in all it appears that others have fully paid the monetary costs of their poor preparation.

'
I believe some of your observations might be in error... I'm pretty sure I heard it stated in the interview, or over on CF, that they did have a high-capacity manual pump aboard... Which would supposedly evacuate "one gallon per stroke", like the large Edson, or similar...

And, according to the Kaufmanns, Lyra had been given "a clean bill of health" by a doctor in Mexico, prior to their departure... Which, they had actually delayed until they were reasonably confident she was over her infection, if memory serves...

Also, precious few Mom & Pop cruisers out there are making passages with what many might consider "enough crew" aboard to hand steer, should it be required due to the conditions, or if the self-steering might go tits up... How capable Charlotte might have been at the helm in heavier conditions, however, might reasonably be called into question, given her lack of offshore/overnight experience... So, you might have a point, that perhaps they might not have had sufficient crew, especially given the amount of care and attention the two young children aboard would have demanded...

I'd be interesting in learning whether the boat was under the control of the Hydrovane, or the autopilot, when she suffered the damaging broach... Based upon my one experience with a Hydrovane on a 43-footer, I was 'underwhelmed' by its performance, to say the least... And that's putting it politely... :) It came nowhere close to steering as well as any of the servo-pendulum vanes I've used, and I wouldn't trust it sailing DDW, or in a situation when an accidental jibe might occur...

 
#319 ·
70 gallons is a 5 gallon bucket every hour and forty three minutes, or a single gallon every twenty minutes.

Also unless you can count and measure while pumping, water in the boat is almost always overestimated. We used to have a swing keel lake boat that had almost no bilge. We came in early once because we thought there was too much water in the boat, to find it was about 2 gallons in reality.

20 pumps on the Whale Gusher is a gallon, so if it comes to it I can know exactly what I'm taking on, whether it is getting better or worse, realistically estimate whether and how long I can keep up, etc..

Less than 40 strokes per hour would keep her dry at 70 gallons.

The Scared Man With a Bucket brand bilge pump could handle it without fatigue. Shouldn't have been a factor in abandoning ship.

'
 
#323 · (Edited)
70 gallons is a 5 gallon bucket every hour and forty three minutes, or a single gallon every twenty minutes.

Also unless you can count and measure while pumping, water in the boat is almost always overestimated. We used to have a swing keel lake boat that had almost no bilge. We came in early once because we thought there was too much water in the boat, to find it was about 2 gallons in reality.

20 pumps on the Whale Gusher is a gallon, so if it comes to it I can know exactly what I'm taking on, whether it is getting better or worse, realistically estimate whether and how long I can keep up, etc..

Less than 40 strokes per hour would keep her dry at 70 gallons.

The Scared Man With a Bucket brand bilge pump could handle it without fatigue. Shouldn't have been a factor in abandoning ship.

'
According to Eric, doesn't sound like it was:

Yeah. The boat's not going to sink at that point. We're not all going to die because we've got a bunch of water coming in. It's a pain in the ass, but it's not the end of the world. There you are. It was under control.

...

I'm pretty positive the boat itself could have made it, although the water was exceeding the electronic bilge pump's capacity so it would have needed manual pumping at least once (and more like three times) a day.
Of course, none of us will ever know what might really have been going on aboard that boat... Charlotte might have easily been freaked out by the realization they were shipping water... For instance, recall the story of the abandonment of TRIUMPH a couple of summers ago. After the loss of the engine, and then one of the shrouds, Doug still appeared to be somewhat coping with the problems... It was not until the surprise discovery of water in the bilge a day or 2 after - presumably admitted through the unplugged hole in deck left by the broken chainplate - that became a total game-changer... Doug's wife Evelyn was really spooked by that discovery, there seemed to be no convincing her that it was not a big deal and could be controlled, she simply wanted off that boat, NOW...In her mind, that boat was SINKING... And thus, the button was pushed, the sat phone call placed to the CG, whatever... (I'm just going from memory, here, but I believe that account of the event is reasonably accurate)

So, yeah, I can easily imagine a similar dynamic playing out aboard REBEL HEART, particularly with a spouse and mother as inexperienced as Charlotte... That's pure speculation, of course, perhaps we'll just have to wait for the book... :)
 
#322 · (Edited)
Have low and high water electric bilge pumps. Every year on any boat I have ever owned when annual commissioning comes up run ALL the bilge pumps. Current boat (and same for past) have two Whale gushers with strainers. One in cockpit and one down below. When run found both were clogged with debris left from initial construction of the boat which worked down over last years sailing. Clumps of what was probably congealed sawdust and the like.This is not a reflection on the builder as debris was quite small and to be expected. Cleared the bellows and good to go. However, this was done at the slip not in the middle of a passage. Believe such pumps required for offshore races and a good idea for any boat.
Think any prudent sailor should check function of all the pumps every year and each time before heading out on a significant sail.
Also carry usual plugs, self set sticks of 2 part epoxy ( which will set underwater) and fiberglass repair kit with extra cloth, self amalgating tape, shrink wrap tape. Short money and little space for piece of mind.
Don't understand issue of water coming in. Would think once noted you would fix it. Also don't understand losing batteries. Once did a delivery where we had down flooding and lost all electronics and engine start. Since then have paid much attention that I have at least two banks of batteries and they be placed in such a manner that only massive down flooding would result in lost or inability to recharge should discharge occur.
Lastly note comment about AP and would note in my limited experience the overwhelming majority of blue water boats no longer have wind vanes. Even those single or double handed. It is common to carry an extra ram and rudder angle indicator as the other components of modern APs seem fairly immune to failure. Sister ship just came back from Bahamas. They commonly saw 17+kts SOG and averaged in double digits. This is on a cruising mono. I strung 3d of 200+d together last year. Impression is this is not that uncommon when running before a front. Suspect even servo pendulum will not perform in that setting. Know they are of little value in racing multi's or mono's for similar reasons.
 
#324 · (Edited)
The decision to take a small child trans-oceanic is obviously a parental decision and I think that it does not reach the level of governmental intervention. However, I personally, as a pediatric intensive care doctor and a sailor, do not think that the medical risk is acceptable.

If we take a serious but usually non-lethal pediatric problem like febrile seizures it is possible to fairly accurately calculate an estimate of the possibility of a child between the age of newborn and 5 years having a seizure that will result in unconsciousness. One study I have used followed 18,500 newborns for 5 years. (University of California, Berkeley).

The risk of a febrile seizure in any one month period for a child in the first 5 years of life is approximately 1 in 3000. Eric had two children in that age group so his chances of that problem were 1 in 1500. There are other studies that suggest the risk may be almost twice as high as the study I quote. And febrile seizures is just one of dozens of diseases a child can develop.

After 25 year of practicing high risk pediatric medicine and sailing, taking care of a pediatric seizure on a short handed boat in bad weather is more excitement than I would care to experience.
 
#337 · (Edited)
The decision to take a small child trans-oceanic is obviously a parental decision and I think that it does not reach the level of governmental intervention. However, I personally, as a pediatric intensive care doctor and a sailor, do not think that the medical risk is acceptable.

If we take a serious but usually non-lethal pediatric problem like febrile seizures it is possible to fairly accurately calculate an estimate of the possibility of a child between the age of newborn and 5 years having a seizure that will result in unconsciousness. One study I have used followed 18,500 newborns for 5 years. (University of California, Berkeley).

The risk of a febrile seizure in any one month period for a child in the first 5 years of life is approximately 1 in 3000. Eric had two children in that age group so his chances of that problem were 1 in 1500. There are other studies that suggest the risk may be almost twice as high as the study I quote. And febrile seizures is just one of dozens of diseases a child can develop.

After 25 year of practicing high risk pediatric medicine and sailing, taking care of a pediatric seizure on a short handed boat in bad weather is more excitement than I would care to experience.
I do agree with you that you can cannot dismiss the medical risk involved in offshore sailing without giving it due cosnideration.

I have ran your example of febrile seizure past my wife the medical authority on our boat, and also a work friend of hers who is a pediatric resident in the emergency department.

They have offered up the following on your example of febrile seizure.

-Often there is an identified history or predisposition that would manifest.
- That in most cases the seizures are self limited with no actual treatment required and that the treatment a major hospital would give (basic seizure response and IV Diazepam or lorazepam) could be administered aboard a sailboat by someone suitable trained on such a course as CYCA Medical Management for Mariners Course (MMM) - Cruising Yacht Club of Australia

-That while certainly unpleasant they are nearly never fatal and in fact there is very rarely any lasting effects.

As for there being a 1 of 3000 chance - I actually don't mind those odds. I will prepare as best I can to face this and other potential risks.

I wonder what the chance of an average suburban child being involved in a car accident would be?
 
#325 ·
They told their story, retold in many cases. Rescuers confirm state of boat and crew. The implication that there is a grand cover up, especially a hysterical or unstable woman on her first open ocean crossing is quite insulting. Their story is dramatic enough without the embellishments.
 
#332 · (Edited)
My apologies, my intent is not to "insult" anyone, or either gender :) I thought I made it clear my point was purely speculative, and I was not meaning to characterize Charlotte's state as being "mentally unstable"...

However, are you suggesting such a prospect is not a possibility? I cited the example aboard TRIUMPH, where a woman with far more ocean sailing experience than Charlotte - and who had none of the additional stresses placed upon her by the sickness of her baby to deal with - still succumbed to a measure of extreme fright due to the perception that the boat was leaking, while they were hundreds of miles from the nearest land...

It's not like such things have not happened before, after all... Again, look to the RULE 62 tragedy, which from what little we know, was precipitated by their abandonment of the Caribbean 1500 after one of the crew (never identified by gender) became sufficiently 'unstable' as to become a concern. Reading Charlotte's blog, seems pretty obvious that was NOT a happy ship... When she raises the prospect of abandoning the plan of a circumnavigation 3 days out, I don't see it as being entirely beyond the realm of possibility that 12 days later, she may have reached the point where she simply wanted Off That Damn Boat... :)

Just to show I'm not some chauvinist picking on the distaff sailors among us, an 'instablility' issue can easily arise with men, as well... During one of the ARC Rallies several years ago, a boat had to be abandoned after the crew became concerned for their own safety, due to the increasingly irrational behavior of the skipper...

The end of Compromise | Yachting World

Again, no intent to "insult" Charlotte was intended by raising this prospect. And my point has solely to do with her level of experience, nothing to do with her gender, or anything akin to her 'mental state'. But I believe it's a simple reality that among the majority of cruising couples out there, the male tends to be the more experienced (Yeah, I know, I can't produce any "data" to support that opinion :) ) Given her lack of experience sailing offshore, coupled with the damage to the boat and the grave concern over the health of her child, such a reaction would not necessarily have been entirely unjustified or 'irrational', at all...
 
#328 ·
Erica, most of us are from democracies. We are allowed to critically analyse situations. George Orwell's thought police never arrived.... And thats the way it ought to stay :).

Mark
Yes, great point. Does "democracy" end with the critics, or with countering the critics?

How bout my critical analyses of certain posts, implying the woman was hysterical, and therefore her fault that the boat was abandoned. This reeks of chovinism? Too critical?
 
#329 · (Edited)
They had the right boat, they had the right equipment, they had the right preparation and experience. They also had bad luck with illness. I do question their (and all) parents who choose to take on the ocean with young children. Yes, its been done for generations...but never has it been considered mainstream or particularly safe.

As a parent, your #1 job is to get a child to adult age, at a physical level. Anything that detracts from that primary purpose, well, it has to be considered heavily. I feel this responsibility so much now with my own daughter, now that I'm a parent. Any undue risk that could cause her harm, well, I try to minimize it! I'm not a helicopter parent by any means, but taking on the ocean is just a lot of risk of downside!


Theres a reason why ocean going men left their wife and children on shore as they plied the seas. This so called "hobby" or lifestyle of ours is not without its risks, and is certainly higher risk than safer land-side pursuit of staying in a house thats mortgaged to the hilt. As with all risks, there is always a probability that you lose...as in lose everything, including your life.
 
#340 · (Edited)
They had the right boat, they had the right equipment, they had the right preparation and experience.
I believe you may be vastly overestimating their prior "preparation and experience", particularly Charlotte's...

As for REBEL HEART being "the right boat", see below...

If we all sit around and say 'how terrible, lets knit them a tea-cosy' it does no good at all. Not the family, but especially not the people out there cruisng and the new people planning their cruise.

Its only by stiring the pot can we see all the elemnts of the stew these folks got themselves into, and out of. And we can not see much if people are stopped from questioning or analysing the information we know.

The "other" forum has a havpbit of closing threads when the analysis gets too heated. So a lot of good information is lost. Two thread of Rebel Heart have been closed because the Moderator have no capacity to adjudicate criticism for trolls. Through that lack of capacity they have destroyed all the posts written during the actual time of the rescue. So a lack of "free speach" has only lessened knowledge. Crazy.

I will write a different one re hysteria, etc.

Mark :)
Yeah, I think that thread on CF is yet another one living on borrowed time :)

As one who cut his teeth in the delivery business running Taiwanese-built boats of that vintage, I'm well aware of many of their shortcomings... But some of the stuff that Smackdaddy and others have unearthed from Eric's blog, and the extent to which plywood rot likely plagued that boat - Wow, just WOW...

Anyone who thinks that particular boat qualified as a "Bluewater Boat", dream on... Hell, your Beneteau is is infinitely more suitable for that passage, than that thing was, even after all the sweat and Elmer's Wood Filler he poured into it... :)

You're absolutely spot on, Eric would have been far ahead of the game, if he'd simply bought any off-the-shelf GRP production HunteBeneLina and spent all those years SAILING the damn thing, instead of wasting all that time trying to make this hole in the water 'whole'...

 
#331 ·
How bout my critical analyses of certain posts, implying the woman was hysterical, and therefore her fault that the boat was abandoned. This reeks of chovinism? Too critical?
I would say the events that caused the eventual demise of Rebel Heart occurred when they left Mexico unprepared, when no one was hysterical. Just not prepared for what predictably was ahead.

No one is being mean.

Actually, I think the opposite way. Beyond the decision to put herself and her children on board, it seems she bore almost no responsibility for the boat, passenger not crew. She really then didn't have knowledge/experience/say-so in the events that damaged the boat and systems.

And for the record, if I had never made a long passage, never been in a storm at sea, had 2 sick kids to tend, was washing messy diapers in the galley sink of a closed up boat, and could see no end in sight, I too would be hysterical. If I did that to my wife, the story would have included "then she came up the companionway with the biggest knife from the galley" or something to that effect.

The epirb went off because they left Mexico doomed, not because Charlotte was hysterical. Meeting with some foul weather on a 3500 mile passage shouldn't be a surprise, and isn't bad luck, it is to be expected, respected, and prepared for carefully.

'
 
#335 ·
my boat's name means seahorse in Greek. please don't beat me and please don't let her ever die.
Did learn a few real good tidbits from this this thread. Will pay a great deal of attention as to which satphone to get and from which vendor. now know the questions to ask.
 
#336 ·
...
Did learn a few real good tidbits from this this thread. Will pay a great deal of attention as to which satphone to get and from which vendor. now know the questions to ask.
Rather a major issue that merits further investigation/explanation in my view.
 
#338 ·
Mark is right on the money. Nobody learns anything when the "politically correct" police start deleting valid opinion and speculation.

Whether it was a factor here or not, a leaking boat is a major panic inducer. When the floorboards start floating it takes a great deal of self control to logically assess the situation. Those of us old enough to remember wood boats probably remember times like that. I surely do.

I would not go out in the ocean without manual pumps both in the cockpit and down below in addition to two electric pumps, one capable of moving a LOT of water. If this boat was not so equipped, IMO, it did not belong where it was.
 
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#339 ·
Mark is right on the money. Nobody learns anything when the "politically correct" police start deleting valid opinion and speculation.
An opinion is an opinion. What makes one more valid than another? Generally the credibility of the speaker. Not everyone's opinion is of equal value.
 
#343 · (Edited)
Heh-heh. Chall, that's my specialty dude!

You guys are both spot-on. This boat was a disaster. Even a knucklehead like me can see that. I've already laid out my summation over there that is exactly as you guys say: The vaunted "bluewater passage maker" that everyone always talks about can actually be a deathtrap unless you're willing to completely rebuild questionable areas. Newbs should know this.

We'll see where the thread goes from there. But as I said over there, I see a lot of myself in RH. And that's why I'm paying close attention to what and how he screwed up. I can totally see myself doing some of the same things. I'd much rather ask questions and get humiliated for my ignorance than use Elmer's Wood Filler as a structural component of my "bluewater boat". Just sayin'.
 
#344 ·
You are always learning and making mistakes.

I have had to have a bit of a think about how we rig our preventer. It has always niggled me, but I have to admit now that because of this and the CF threads I have accepted our arrangement to be unwise.

Morgan's Cloud have a great article on preventer setup, i'm reading that and I am going to do it properly.
 
#345 ·
For me I think this could have been a good learning opportunity because the main folks involved where active on the forums. Sadly it has turned into anything but that.

For what ever reasons the information form Eric is vague and somewhat misleading with conflicting information.

He talks about the sat phone being suddenly cut off because the company decided with a weeks notice to change all their sim cards. I find this odd and did a google search and nothing. You would think if a company did this to all their customers as Eric implied (and maybe I got that wrong) there would be something about it online. Eric does not mention company name or I missed it. Anyway I would love to know what really happened here so the issue could be avoided by others or at least get a more reliable company.

The leak: Eric says his electric pumps could not keep up but yet it seems only 70 gallons a day and the rescue folks said it was not big deal. So why would the electric pumps not keep up? Even a small electric can easily handle 70 gallons a day. Once again it would be nice to know just what was up.

For some reason, despite a lengthy discussion on the other forum Eric has not said anything about the leak other than it was in the quarter and he tried to fix it and failed. Not a big deal but why not just explain it so everyone will understand. Maybe we could learn why the fix failed so that others could be better prepared for emergency repairs.

The broach, there was no mention of this at first, maybe just an over sight by Eric. But once again even after long discussions he will not explain this in detail.

I know Eric does not owe anyone anything and he is not required to explain anything but I do find it disappointing that he has been so vague and not taken the time to clear things up. Considering how critical he is of others it seems he could at least give the details and put this to bed. I my mind at least something just does not seem right about this.

Personally I think he screwed up and the outcome proves that to be true. We all make mistakes and lord knows I have made my share so I do not mean to say he should be faulted for his mistakes. But the thing about mistakes is that once made we should learn from them. I do not think we are learning much from this episode though because we may never know just what really happened. Instead of learning we are left with a bunch of conflicting information and a ton of speculation.

Just my two cents and we all know two cents aint worth much these days
 
#348 ·
I know Eric does not owe anyone anything and he is not required to explain anything but I do find it disappointing that he has been so vague and not taken the time to clear things up. Considering how critical he is of others it seems he could at least give the details and put this to bed. I my mind at least something just does not seem right about this.

Personally I think he screwed up and the outcome proves that to be true. We all make mistakes and lord knows I have made my share so I do not mean to say he should be faulted for his mistakes. But the thing about mistakes is that once made we should learn from them. I do not think we are learning much from this episode though because we may never know just what really happened. Instead of learning we are left with a bunch of conflicting information and a ton of speculation.

Just my two cents and we all know two cents aint worth much these days
Very well said. Exactly the reason I didn't let this thread die.

I fear the future book featuring the Kaufmans as heroes would be ruined by admitting to mistakes here, especially the kind that doomed the voyage before it began. It is not in my nature to "stir the pot" as Mark put it, but my bovine excrement meter pegged on too many elements of this story.

If you are going to participate here in critiquing others when they make mistakes, man up and fess up when it's you.

It is also kinda insulting when someone tries to sell us a steaming load, knowing that it's not going to fool anyone here. The truth would have been welcomed with open arms. Maybe the NPR listeners and potential non sailing book buyers don't know any better, but we do.

It's not as if we are not respecting their privacy, as they blogged things far more intimate than any of cared to know. TMI on several counts. Closing the floodgates now only smacks of the guilty taking the 5th indignantly. How dare you even ask.

Just my 2 cents, too.

'
 
#346 ·
Wife makes fun of me. Any time I see a boat I study it. ? Maybe they ran their lines differently? Maybe they have something else set up better?
Any time on someone else's boat study what they do. Maybe they have better or easier way.

When you stop learning they had better have thrown dirt in your face first because they soon will.
 
#349 ·
Oh, I think I intended to discuss this in my oost and forgot... And it was getting long anyways :rolleyes:

Thats not what I call broaching. What do you call it? Its a "knock down", or "knocked on ones beam ends", "fall off a wave", A small one "pushed about"?
When a wave hits you and chucks you on your side, or slews you around. Or as Phil pointed out, it can cause a broach if it lifts the rudder, or white water is under the rudder so it cavitates and the boat comes up to wind.

When the waves are big enough and breaking dangerously enough for the boat to be knocked down then one must do one of three basic things: de-power the boat, change the angle of the boats attack to the waves, heave to, or run off.
You just can't keep going because a knock down can break the brandy balloons below!

Even the milder ones where I get pushed about by a wave I wonder at the exponential increase in pressure on the rudder.

Mark :)
This is a good point - that you made over on CF. But that thread turned into a MoronFest - so I'll bring it over here where the sailors are.

It's yet another red flag to me on this whole story. RH doesn't seem to have a firm grip of the terminology. Sure, I get quarter and bow mixed up too - but I don't have a license.

The discrepancies between their stories, his unwillingness to provide details - this whole things just seems like they had no real idea what they were doing and were willing to take pretty outrageous gambles with everyone's lives. When the baby is the one that actually has to step in to save the family, something's not right.
 
#350 ·
This is a good point - that you made over on CF. But that thread turned into a MoronFest - so I'll bring it over here where the sailors are.
Glad to see you back. BS was getting lonely.

Too much time over there and you would have had to trade the Hunter in on a 56' Cat and join the Carib 1500 :eek:

It's yet another red flag to me on this whole story. RH doesn't seem to have a firm grip of the terminology. Sure, I get quarter and bow mixed up too - but I don't have a license.
Mark's point is valid, but your taking it a step too far. Eric knows his stuff, maybe it is more knowledge than hard earned experience, but Eric is a good sailor. The broach business came up in an interview. Maybe there was some confusion, maybe some exaggeration or simply the interviewer kinda got it kinda wrong and Eric rolled with it.

It isn't a smoking gun either way. Sorry. It just isn't really anything.

The discrepancies between their stories, his unwillingness to provide details - .....
Smack, Eric came back onto CF weeks after losing his boat and answered a bunch of questions. He gave a firsthand account, filled in plenty of details and copped a bunch of crap.

How often in these incidents does a skipper come back to a forum to allow that level of scrutiny? He has my respect for doing it.

Yeah he didn't answer some of your specific questions. Clearly something to the hull/deck issue, but again so what.

this whole things just seems like they had no real idea what they were doing and were willing to take pretty outrageous gambles with everyone's lives. When the baby is the one that actually has to step in to save the family, something's not right.
How do you get to that rather alarmist and condemning conclusion?

What 'outrageous gambles' were they taking in your opinion?
Why do you feel 'they had no real idea" ?

My impression is that they were well prepared. Not in a perfect boat, but a good one that was well outfitted.

You seem determined to find a smoking gun, a reason to nail these guys and declare that they didn't know what they were doing and that is why they got hammered.

The truth is harder to take but more based in reality.

Rebel Heart didn't do anything necessarily wrong, they took risks, but we all take risks, in their case they rolled the dice and lost.
 
#351 ·
Everytime I come into the slip, I think I could have done something a bit differently. It's a part of sailing. No doubt, if I lost my boat at sea, my mind would be full of those thoughts. I assume the same for the Rebel Heart crew. Again, I would not have chosen to take my infant children on that cruise, but I see no clear damnation that no one should have. It's their call and I believe more do so successfully under their circumstances than don't. That's admittedly an assumption.

However, inconsistent details are not surprising. There has to be something these guys wish they did differently and may not be fully forthcoming. I don't really have a problem with that. They don't owe us a glance, let alone an explanation.

Yes, there was risk in what they set to do. It was not the insane risk of sailing the Bounty into a hurricane, but it was a risk beyond what many would have taken on. I still consider it inside the band of a decision they had a right to make for themselves and their children.
 
#352 ·
Well prepared?

With absolutely 0 practice/shakedown/experience in heavy weather offshore?

With passengers who had never been offshore in any big weather?

In a boat with known unaddressed issues?

With passengers still/just finished taking antibiotics for serious issues?

With untested (in conditions) self-steering totally relied upon in heavy conditions?

If that was prepared, it was prepared for the rescue flight.

I'm sorry, but the apologists and distractors have got to get a dose of reality here. They clearly were not prepared, and if they had faced a real Pacific storm, they would likely have been lost. They faced weather one should expect to see somewhere along the way, and were not ready.

Prepared?

'
 
#354 ·
Well prepared?

With absolutely 0 practice/shakedown/experience in heavy weather offshore?

'
7-8 Years cruising and living on the boat. That wasn't a shakedown?

With passengers who had never been offshore in any big weather?

'
Plenty of boats sailing across the Pacific with people on board with no previous experience offshore in 'big weather'. That is how one get's experience sailing offshore in big weather.

In a boat with known unaddressed issues?

'
Every boat has some known unaddressed issues somehwere or other. The judgement call is in figuring out what needs addressing and what doesn't. It would appear that made a mistake here. Mistakes though are what generally makes us better sailors. Their's bit them in the bum.

With untested (in conditions) self-steering totally relied upon in heavy conditions?

'
So you missed where Eric tested the Hydrovane in the Sea of Cortez? Or that they also had an autopilot?? Or that a boat like that would of probably been pretty balanced with a lashed wheel anyway???

If that was prepared, it was prepared for the rescue flight.

'
Clever. I see what you did there.

They clearly were not prepared, and if they had faced a real Pacific storm, they would likely have been lost. '
A 'real pacific storm'?????
 
#356 ·
these threads just keep getting more dumb and opinionated by the day

one thing I find amusing and sad is how vociferous some are that have never even sailed the open ocean themselves, on their boat, on others etc...

its like the vociferousness comes from the fear of not actually having done it...so you must yell louder so it rings more true or something...

its simply baffling...and sad
 
#358 ·
Why is everyone focusing on the mechanical issues, as though that is what doomed the passage?

That wasn't what doomed the trip, the little girl getting sick and needing emergency care is what caused them to bail. Both the RH crew and the rescuers indicated that the boat would have continued along fine if their girl had not gotten sick, none of the issues aboard were severe enough for them to call for help.

According to rescuers, they only had to pump water out for a few minutes out of each day. They also indicated there were no steering problems with the boat, as was reported by the media.
 
#359 ·
Why is everyone focusing on the mechanical issues, as though that is what doomed the passage?

That wasn't what doomed the trip, the little girl getting sick and needing emergency care is what caused them to bail. Both the RH crew and the rescuers indicated that the boat would have continued along fine if their girl had not gotten sick, none of the issues aboard were severe enough for them to call for help.

According to rescuers, they only had to pump water out for a few minutes out of each day. They also indicated there were no steering problems with the boat, as was reported by the media.
Because some want to find a smoking gun here. They want to be able to say that these guys were bad sailors and tut tut in their direction.

Smack's little deck drama was perhaps a contributing factor, certainly a good lesson to rest of us, but NOT the issue.

Rebel Heart got unlucky. It could of been a 60 year old having a heart attack or it could of been an brand new Amel losing it's mast.

It sucks but it's sailing.
 
#361 ·
I don't desire to flail at this topic too much more because the point of diminishing returns was hit a while ago due to reticence to fill in the blanks by those who can...but I will simply say this...

...the toddler was getting better.
...the boat was getting sicker.
...the crew was sick of it.

The end result is what it is.
 
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