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Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > Vessels Lost, Missing, or in Danger
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  #11  
Old 07-01-2014
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Re: Malo 45' loses rudder, pulls an All is Lost

Med - I don't think that the 120V bilge pump would help much in this situation. I believe that the inefficiency in running the inverter makes a 120V pump inadvisable. I know that the USCG has high velocity (150 GPM) gasoline pumps that they can drop to a stricken vessel. Here are some pix;




My thought was; IF it were possible to drop the spade rudder safely, to do so (it would be on my O'day - but then again, my O'day would NEVER be 500 miles from land) and thereby stop the rudder shaft from damaging the boat further. Once the shaft was away, you would be left with a hole at, or near, the waterline that would now be the top priority. The boat would probably also begin to yaw wildly... Your first priority once the rudder was jettisoned would be to plug the hole with a throwable PFD, a sail, anything...

Therefore; the sequence of events would be to; contact the CG, prepare the evacuation plan, rig the drogue, drop the rudder, plug the hole, contact the CG, and if possible - limp to port.
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  #12  
Old 07-01-2014
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Re: Malo 45' loses rudder, pulls an All is Lost

Has anyone ever experimented with something like this stuff for a hole in a boat away from the dock? Carrying a few cans to use to stop catastrophic leaks. I know it expands and dries really fast and is hard as hell to get off stuff once it is dry.



At the point you were realizing you couldn't stop the water and were going to have to abandon a boat anyway, what could it hurt to try and use a can or two to stop a leak?

(I know this is arm chairing, but I have used this stuff a few times and it is kind of amazing the way it works. I think I'm going to buy a can and do some experiments with it).
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Last edited by Group9; 07-01-2014 at 11:41 AM.
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  #13  
Old 07-01-2014
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Re: Malo 45' loses rudder, pulls an All is Lost

Quote:
Originally Posted by knuterikt View Post
How easy do you think it is to just drop the rudder in conditions like that.

Maybe they could have used ropes to stabilize the rudder, but just dropping it..
I expect it would be slightly harder than postulating from my armchair, that's for sure. I was imagining cutting the shaft. I've done that with a 1.5" stainless prop shaft and it isn't easy. You'd also be using 110V tools in close quarters with lots of water. Or finding a lot of motivation while using a hack saw...

I think I like your rope to stabilize the rudder idea better. Depends on the boat though. My formosa didn't have much rudder stock above the bearing, so there wouldn't be enough leverage to do anything useful.

As for the gas powered pumps, as a recovering wooden boat owner, I've eyeballed those for years. True, it is completely independent of other systems, but I don't like the reliability issues of a small gas engine, with varnished up gas, being stored in a salty bilge, firing up when you really need it. Heck, I have enough of a hard time starting my mower after a winter...

The electric ones have less parts to go wrong, though you are dependent on your generator (if you have one) or inverter. My new boat has both, so there is some redundancy there... I wouldn't worry about power inefficiencies though as I expect you'll be running a generator or engine while all this is happening. They make the electric ones pretty big too. Many hundreds of GPM with 2" outlets.

The gas one, if maintained and tested regularly, is a better option, but it also involves another item to scrupulously maintain and test. It involves storing and rotating gas (which I have avoided so far) and is bigger and heavier. Tradeoffs. I like the middle of the road solution of the 110V pump for my boat, but if I were still on a wooden boat (shudder) I would have the gas powered pump for sure.

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  #14  
Old 07-01-2014
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Re: Malo 45' loses rudder, pulls an All is Lost

Quote:
Originally Posted by Group9 View Post
Has anyone ever experimented with something like this stuff for a hole in a boat away from the dock? Carrying a few cans to use to stop catastrophic leaks. I know it expands and dries really fast and is hard as hell to get off stuff once it is dry.

Yes. The second video at about 8:00 is when they test the foam idea. These two videos are required viewing BTW.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRhcXBtmPQs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUg3TUmnQBs

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  #15  
Old 07-01-2014
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Re: Malo 45' loses rudder, pulls an All is Lost

Quote:
Originally Posted by Group9 View Post
Has anyone ever experimented with something like this stuff for a hole in a boat away from the dock? Carrying a few cans to use to stop catastrophic leaks. I know it expands and dries really fast and is hard as hell to get off stuff once it is dry.



At the point you were realizing you couldn't stop the water and were going to have to abandon a boat anyway, what could it hurt to try and use a can or two to stop a leak?

(I know this is arm chairing, but I have used this stuff a few times and it is kind of amazing the way it works).
In my Navy days we had exercises where we stopped water leaks.
We did this on a FPB that where holed and put on land but with water supply on the outside so it was quite realistic...

The problem with that stuff is that you must be able to keep it in place while it hardens - else it would be washed away. It could be used together with other techniques.


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Old 07-01-2014
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Re: Malo 45' loses rudder, pulls an All is Lost

My experience with gas powered pumps (especially other peoples) has been less than encouraging. The vessel I had in the Beaufort had a large capacity centrifugal pump belt driven from the prop shaft (idler pulley if you don't want to risk losing a finger) Never used it but you never know when dancing with ice. Thane didn't have enough room for a similar setup so I relied on a 2 inch impeller on an electric clutch and a 110 sump pump which has the advantage of being portable .Never used it either but had 3 wt bulkheads and a long strong keel under it all.

Last edited by Capt Len; 07-01-2014 at 12:30 PM.
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  #17  
Old 07-01-2014
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Re: Malo 45' loses rudder, pulls an All is Lost

When we were in Australia they were selling a dense, putty-like material to stop leaks. I forget the name of it. It looked quite promising but was not cheap. Don't think it would have helped with this boat's problem since the moving rudder post would just push it away. I think one of the problems with a serious leak is that there can be a lot of different situations. Having a hole like on those videos is entirely different from this one at the rudder post. Saying you have a leak strategy for all occasions just does not work.
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Old 07-01-2014
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Re: Malo 45' loses rudder, pulls an All is Lost

Quote:
Originally Posted by killarney_sailor View Post
When we were in Australia they were selling a dense, putty-like material to stop leaks. I forget the name of it. It looked quite promising but was not cheap. Don't think it would have helped with this boat's problem since the moving rudder post would just push it away. I think one of the problems with a serious leak is that there can be a lot of different situations. Having a hole like on those videos is entirely different from this one at the rudder post. Saying you have a leak strategy for all occasions just does not work.
Yeah, we're just hot washing it. The one silver lining to an incident like this, is that it makes you consider what you would do if it happened to you, and gives you the luxury of time, to do it in.

I'm sure these guys have replayed in their head a hundred times and come with several things they wish they had tried, or been prepared to try. I admit the idea of a rudder coming loose and causing this type of damage never occurred to me before this incident. I just figured the worst would be it falling off and having to plug the hole it left and then figuring out how to steer the boat.
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  #19  
Old 07-01-2014
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Re: Malo 45' loses rudder, pulls an All is Lost

Quote:
Originally Posted by killarney_sailor View Post
When we were in Australia they were selling a dense, putty-like material to stop leaks. I forget the name of it. It looked quite promising but was not cheap. Don't think it would have helped with this boat's problem since the moving rudder post would just push it away. I think one of the problems with a serious leak is that there can be a lot of different situations. Having a hole like on those videos is entirely different from this one at the rudder post. Saying you have a leak strategy for all occasions just does not work.
Best to have a big bag of tricks and start using them one at a time, and quickly!!

Something from the medical profession that I keep abord the boat is 3M Scotchcast fiberglass casting tape. Basically, you open the package, dip the roll in water, apply the tape and a couple minutes later you have solid fiberglass. Seems like it could come in handy. For the rudder, you could just pound the whole roll into the hole.

They also make a slightly less rigid casting material that can be cut with EMT shears called "Scotchcast soft cast". For actual casting purposes aboard this would be infinitely preferable because cutting a regular cast off without a specialized saw is difficult, and if the extremity swells, it can die if the cast isn't cut off.

They also market the same stuff to vets, probably much less expensive too. Though the human grade stuff isn't too expensive either....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnvDLnVDKCw#t=174

Buy them here, split a box with your buddy.
https://www.mooremedical.com/index.c...PID=4159&spx=1

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Last edited by MedSailor; 07-01-2014 at 12:48 PM.
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  #20  
Old 07-01-2014
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Re: Malo 45' loses rudder, pulls an All is Lost

nothing like isolated watertight bulkheads and compartments

if I could id apply james baldwins atom site for a lot of these scenarios.

the reality though is most of us just cant or wont do it...its a lot of work, especially on a boat with big systems.

in any case, always sad to see a boat go down....

peace
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