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  #201  
Old 10-26-2008
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Quote:
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Exactly where is the luck there... jury-rigging the boat took SKILL, KNOWLEDGE, and EXPERIENCE.
Dog, Touché
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  #202  
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Luck prefers the prepared.
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  #203  
Old 10-26-2008
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Thanks Bubb.

I'd also point out that IF Ronnie had has some experience, he might have been able to jury rig a tiller on his boat.... From all accounts, the rudder and rudder stock were INTACT. AFAICT, the thing that broke was the key locking the steering quadrant to the rudder stock. In fact, if he had done a proper preparation of the boat for a bluewater voyage, he would have had an emergency tiller for the rudder stock aboard and known how to use it... so jury-rigging a method to steer would have been minimal at most.
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You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
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—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

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Last edited by sailingdog; 10-26-2008 at 11:36 PM.
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  #204  
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I agree, Ron made mistakes, but not with the boat.

I would sail to Hawaii in a 47 year old bounty, it was a good boat and with care it still is. I agree that he should have prepared better, but up until he got off the boat, the boat had not failed, it was still floating, even after it was run over. That is a good boat.

The only reason that Ron survived could be because he chose that boat.

I have crawled in the bilges of a few boats in my search that are called bluewater and I wondered if I could make it back to the dock without getting wet.

We just had a vessel sink off the Aleutians last week. The boat failed. The ones survived were lucky, their raft didn't blow over more than once.

Last edited by wardp; 10-26-2008 at 11:53 PM. Reason: left out a part
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  #205  
Old 10-26-2008
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Thanks all for your thoughts and feedback.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingdog View Post
Chall-

IIRC, at least in Tania's case, her boat was brand new, purpose bought for her by her father in place of a college education. Her boat was also a very, very seaworthy Folkboat derivative that was capable of taking care of her and helping protect her from her mistakes. She also started by going to Bermuda, rather than trying to cross an entire ocean all at once. That said, she was also very lucky. .
SailingDog I take your point, I wasn't trying to make a direct comparison with Ronnie either, I put it out there as an example of equally ambitious but slightly more prepared voyage to find out what folk on here thought...

Thanks also Camaraderie, for addressing my queation so directly! My fear was that we did indeed only hear about the isolated few who succeed and that for every Tania Aebi/Robin Graham/Jesse Martin etc there are alot who don't get to write the book but alternatively get into/cause alot of trouble. I guess I don't ever want to be in that second category( for what it's worth I have no plans to write a book anytime soon either).

Smack Daddy, I get alot of what your saying, however I think the other differences between the 'sinker' mentioned in another thread and Ronnie, is that the sinker wasn't trying to sail to Hawaii in an unsurveyed ancient boat and didn't end up getting in trouble 600 miles from land. He was coastal sailing in a modern production boat, and was well and truly in sight of land, a couple of miles from a major boating hub and city, when he was 'rescued'. Yeah the media made it sound alot more sensational, but I think it was just a slow news day. Ok the sinker did head out in crappy weather....but I think port hopping up the coast in a 5 year old production yacht in bad weather, is different than sailing from San Diego to Hawaii off season....
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  #206  
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WardP-

While the boat may have been a good choice...he did make the mistake of not inspecting or prepping the boat properly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wardp View Post
I agree, Ron made mistakes, but not with the boat.

I would sail to Hawaii in a 47 year old bounty, it was a good boat and with care it still is. I agree that he should have prepared better, but up until he got off the boat, the boat had not failed, it was still floating, even after it was run over. That is a good boat.

The only reason that Ron survived could be because he chose that boat.

I have crawled in the bilges of a few boats in my search that are called bluewater and I wondered if I could make it back to the dock without getting wet.

We just had a vessel sink off the Aleutians last week. The boat failed. The ones survived were lucky, their raft didn't blow over more than once.
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You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

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  #207  
Old 10-27-2008
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I agree.

Winter is not the time to frolic in the Pacific.
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  #208  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Semi - look, I just disagree with you guys about the underlying argument you're making. That's all. I'm not calling anybody names. I'm not belittling anyone. I just don't think you guys are right. I don't think you guys are being objective. I think you guys are overblowing this whole thing - as shown in this thread. That's all.

Whether that makes me a troll I suppose is a matter of opinion.

It's inarguable that knowledge and experience are great, necessary things for success in any endeavor. Of course they are. It's just mystifying to me why you guys keep preaching this so hard (although inconsistently) using these extreme examples to make your point. A point that is really pretty obvious to most sane people.

And this especially when BFS was always about pushing personal limits - not sailing around the freaking world in a ferro-cement tug with a woven rug as a sail and a Toys-R-Us sextant on your first time in a boat. Not that there's anything wrong with that if you can pull it off.

BUT, when the "idiot" sermon is continually preached at the expense of the "calculated risk" discussion - it really gets old. Especially when luck brings us home in the end anyway.

That's all I'm saying. I just agree with your signature.

You don't think we're right. You don't think we're objective. How the heck would you know...you've never been out of sight of land! I've pissed more salt water than you've sailed. I've taught seamanship, navigation, and lifeboatman certification to men and women ranging from eighth grade educations to college students and what I most hoped to teach them was how to remain safe until they got enough knowledge and respect for the sea to do so on their own more thoroughly. Those students in pursuit of a Third Mate's license are weeded out ruthlessly for lack of ability or aptitude. Half the USCG license exam requires 90% as a passing grade, and that's just for the book learning aspect. I've fired men with genius IQ's and substandard judgment for taking unnecessary risks with the ship and the lives of their shipmates. There are no second chances. You don't get a do-over.

It's not about personal limits. It's about what the sea hands you. If you're lucky you'll have a bit of experience before the sea kills you. Even experience might not be enough. And none of us have the slightest idea as to what might be "enough" experience. We can only hope that when confronted with what the sea delivers, in extremis, that something we learned a long time ago subconsciously helps us to do the right thing at the right time. And 99.9% of that you will never learn on sailnet or in any book. While we may not be able to say what is enough experience, we certainly have some good, and valid, ideas on what is demonstrably not enough experience. There isn't enough luck in this whole world to keep you very safe for long at sea.

If you were being in the least way objective, you'd probably be marveling at all there is involved to going off to sea that you know nothing about, rather than lecturing those of us who know something about it. I've lost men at sea and I've classmates who will never be found. And I take what I post on the Internet seriously because someone may rely on it in their decision-making to go offshore. And the only way I know to convey the concept of prudent seamanship is to encourage and promote the idea that the prudent seaman always has doubts and is always second guessing himself. He is under no illusions that the sea will honor his past experience.
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  #209  
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Good post, Sway.
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  #210  
Old 10-27-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post

Whether that makes me a troll I suppose is a matter of opinion.

It's inarguable that knowledge and experience are great, necessary things for success in any endeavor. Of course they are. It's just mystifying to me why you guys keep preaching this so hard (although inconsistently) using these extreme examples to make your point. A point that is really pretty obvious to most sane people.

Well you end quote: "A point that is really pretty obvious to most sane people." - You assume that you are sane, when in fact we know that with belligerent and bombastic insistence that "Fight Club" and "BFS" and your lame attempt at "LFS" ... that if you - yourself had the kinda mind that wants to learn from other's mistakes, you might take heed of the comments given. You don't. You may be highly educated but I think you have what is often described as an engineers one track mind. In that - all you can see is what you think a outcome should be based on a definition of an experience based soley on what you have envisioned it to be according to how you would want it.

Good for you and hope it works out for you in that mini test lab you call a BFS lake.

Extreme examples do make a point because if you look at the relative data - unequivocally demonstrates the rate of success and failures, based upon:

wait for it...


Really - wait...


Wait for it...

Preparedness on all levels.

Just like a single wanna be playboy wants to score, the environment is chosen and the targets are acquisitioned in a dutiful manner. You wanna compare "luck" - luck is by design my friend. You do whatever you can do to make the outcome as close as what you want but you have to prepare. That dude that hasn't bathed in 3 months aint gonna be scoring just because he can drop 10K on HD video equipment. That whom maybe will kinda be in the gonna score category - has all the p's and q's addressed before he attempts because he knows - it is better to be over pre-pared than to be not.

You ridicule "extreme examples" - because you don't understand the importance of the lesson...A playboy knows how to deal with the type that suddenly exclaims holy murder I woke up with you...Mother nature actually isn't that kind because you can't exactly kick mother nature out the door when you don't feel like dealing with it...





Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
And this especially when BFS was always about pushing personal limits - not sailing around the freaking world in a ferro-cement tug with a woven rug as a sail and a Toys-R-Us sextant on your first time in a boat. Not that there's anything wrong with that if you can pull it off.
Interesting you bash a ferro cement boat then counter with if you can pull it off. Again illustrating that you are a troll and that you truly do not get it...

Pushing personal limits requires three things:

1) Trust in your boat.
2) Trust in anyone on your boat.
3) Trust in yourself to make decision because you directely dictate the outcome of any dire circumstances for those listed above.

You just do not get it...
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