BFS Proponent Rescued at Sea - Page 42 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > Vessels Lost, Missing, or in Danger
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree21Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #411  
Old 07-16-2010
smackdaddy's Avatar
Last Man Standing
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 12,950
Thanks: 80
Thanked 72 Times in 66 Posts
Rep Power: 8
smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough
Quote:
Originally Posted by KeelHaulin View Post
We are not talking about going out and hitting some heavy air on an inland waterway or coastal daysail in protected waters here. Going out on a 3k mile voyage with little to no experience; regardless of how well prepared the boat is or if it was "approved of" by the boat owner is just plain nuts.

He was "approved" by the Singlehanded Sailing Society - San Francisco Shorthanded Racing. So they and the owner disagree with yours and dog's thesis.

I don't care if he made it; and I don't respect the guy for making it more. He is simply a novice sailor who was able to get his boat from here to there in one piece (this time).

Okay. Your choice. But the following logic you (and Dog I guess) are hanging your arguments on doesn't hold up...

Boats that are well equipped and prepared are more than capable of sailing WITH NOBODY ABOARD for tens of thousands of miles. I'll cite the Olson 40 "Pterodactyl"; which had her crew washed overboard while crossing the SF Bar during a race two years ago. It was later found in-tact with shredded sails off the coast of JAPAN. My point is that if you can manage to stay aboard and keep the mast in the air; the boat can pretty much survive most anything without someone who is competent at the helm.

Does this mean it is wise go offshore as Ronnie did? ABSOLUTELY NOT. It's times when the s**t hits the fan and you need to rely on many years of experience to save the boat or yourself.

So, wait, on the one hand you say that a good boat doesn't need any help by having someone competent at the helm. But when the s**t hits the fan it suddenly needs seasoned competency at the helm? Which one is it? Does this mean that Ronnie actually showed far more competence than the "Pterodactyl" crew by simply staying on his boat?

It's not a matter of whether Ronnie was "Lucky"; it's the certainty that he has not had the practical knowledge or experience to attempt such a thing.

Again, your opinion only. The boat's owner and the SSS disagree with it.

I'll say it again. People who do things like Singlehanded racing (let alone ocean crossings); generally are those who have had a LIFETIME of experience sailing everything from El Toros and small keel boats, to CREWING on offshore racing boats BEFORE THEY START ENTERING SINGLEHANDED EVENTS. This is the common and accepted way of becoming a single-handed sailor.

Again, your opinion only. The boat's owner and the SSS disagree with it.

Most of the sailors who enter the SHTP have already sailed to HI on crewed racing or cruising boats; or sailed with crew on other offshore boats before attempting it singhlehanded. Those people have my respect; because they have done the necessary "training" to become a competent offshore sailor and make the passage with much, much less concern for the need of a rescure or assistance.

Again, your opinion only. The boat's owner and the SSS disagree with it. Look, you're really starting to jump the shark here. Unfortunately, we're going to have to get into the Skip Allan argument again. Why? Because the same organization that deemed Skip (The General, etc.) "competent for the SHTP" - deemed Ronnie the same. If you don't like that - take it up with SSS. But that's the way it is. Therefore, your arguments are seriously hollow on this point.

As I said before; a well equipped/prepared boat can make it on it's own merits. But WHAT IF SOMETHING FAILS OR CONDITIONS ARE BEYOND THE COMPETENCE OF THE SAILOR??

Back to the Skip Allan story. I'm interested to hear your distinctions here. Another thing you need to remember is that the first 3 days of this year's SHTP were pretty damn rough. ALL the sailors were reporting serious seasickness, miserable conditions, broken gear, generally lots of fans covered in s**t. So it was no cakewalk at the start. And they all, even Ronnie, made it through (well a couple of the seasoned guys had to turn back or couldn't get out in the first place - but that's another story).

That's where you really need to take a good hard look at this and ask yourself "who DESERVES my admiration and respect; and should serve as a role-model for the next generation of sailors"? Should it be the Abbies, Zacks, and Ronnies, of the world? Or should it be people who made their accomplishments with the proper amount of background experience to sail on offshore passages BEFORE attempting to do it alone?

You've made it clear who deserves your admiration. I'm just saying that the standards you've set up for that admiration are somewhat flawed and seriously narrow. But, that's cool, they're your standards. They're just not universally held...even by very well regarded sailing organizations.

I will cite one more example. Recently a Ranger 33 was lost outside of SF gate by a couple; the man had 25 years of sailing experience (I don't know what her's was). One report was from a friend who said that the owner was always safety conscious; knew what he was doing, and taught him how to sail 20 years ago aboard the Ranger 33. Sounds like they were competent, right?

There is another report to the story; and it goes like this. The owner of that Ranger 33 had never gone offshore; and this was their FIRST trip outside of SF Bay and down to Half Moon Bay on a trial cruise before going cruising down the California Coast and beyond. They did not know enough about offshore conditions to be out in rough seas; and they did not know how terribly bad the conditions on SF Bar get when there is an Ebb current and any significant swell is coming in.

My point is the following: If you do something stupid; you will likely pay with your life.

To my knowledge - no one around here, even the pesky "BFS Proponents" have ever said different. Sail big - sail smart - sail home. What's not to like?

Ronnie got EXTREMELY lucky the first time. He did not learn from that mistake, and got EXTREMELY lucky again when he chose to sail to HI on his own with no real offshore experience/training (because nothing critical on the boat failed). The fact that the owner is helping him sail the boat back to SF speaks volumes. Downwind sailing in most cases is a piece of cake compared to the 3k mile upwind bash.

See, back to your impossible standards. The fact that the owner is joining Ronnie for the return both supports and crushes your logic. Yes, it's obviously much harder on the return. It was the return that got Skip Allan. However, the fact that the owner is joining Ronnie is a great sign. First, as pointed out ad nauseam, the owner and SSS were comfortable in Ronnie's abilities to do the race. Second, Ronnie is about to get some incredible training from a seasoned sailor in more difficult conditions that will give him 6K miles of ocean crossing under his SHTP beltbuckle. Yes - it all speaks volumes. It just doesn't say what you want it to say.

Please don't hold guys like Ronnie up as "heroes" so others can follow in their footsteps. It undermines the very core beliefs of maritime tradition that you "earn" your way up the ladder to being a competent captain by way of passed down knowledge and hands-on seamanship training.

First, I've said it many times; I don't hold him up as a hero. I just truly respect his accomplishment in the face of a lot of naysayers. I admire that kind of spirit. As for this maritime tradition ladder - it's your ladder Keel, not the world's. It sounds like you should take this up with the SSS not BFS if you think differently. BFS didn't qualify him for the SHTP.

These things take time to learn and process. It's not a Playstation game. You can't just hit the reset button and start again in most cases. But apparently Ronnie managed to do this after hitting the EPIRB button by smooth talking the owner of Warriors Wish into giving him another chance. I don't reward him for it with my admiration; I respect the fact that he made it across, but that's all.

Well, I'd call that progress. Case closed.
Keel - in the end, 60% of what you're saying is right on the mark. No argument about the need for experience, competence, smarts, safety-consciousness, et. al. I too question the intelligence of single-handed ocean voyaging.

But I agree with Bubble - the other 40% is off-base simply because you personally can't stand what this guy (and I suppose by extension BFS) represents. His story is an affront to your idea of how things should be. Understood. But your crankiness is clouding your logic on this one.

Regardless, I actually respect you for being able to type that last sentence.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

S/V Dawn Treader - 1989 Hunter Legend 40

Last edited by smackdaddy; 07-16-2010 at 12:07 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #412  
Old 07-16-2010
RTB's Avatar
RTB RTB is offline
TROUBLE
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 318
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Rep Power: 6
RTB is on a distinguished road
I guess you guys know where I hang out mostly? I asked Ronnie about what's next for him. Seems he has a plan and will be pretty busy for awhile.

thanks for the nice comments. Ralph, where are you these days? are you in Hawaii.

no. wife, kids and house in the suburbs are nowhere on my short or long term list right now.

once I sail the boat back to Cali, I plan on putting together a book proposal and submitting it to my literary agent. When/ if the proposal gets sold, I will fix up my new (to me) cruising boat and head back to Hanalei Bay, Kauai to write the book.

I will also be working on starting a new wounded veteran related sailing non-profit, probably in Southern California, working with some existing organizations.

I will also be beginning work on a Mini Transat campaign, which will probably be preceded by a Singlehanded Transpac campaign in the Mini. This will require corporate sponsorship.

I also hope to compete in the Iditarod sled dog race sometime in the next few years, so i've got to journey to Alaska and learn something of sled dog racing over the next few winters.

In the immediate future, i've got some magazine articles and boat work lined up to get me by for a few months.

so yeah, next few years should be busy.


I linked this thread to him, but don't think he cares to deal with this stuff anymore. You can't blame him.

He will sail Warrior's Wish back to Cali with a friend who is a delivery skipper, not the owner.

I wonder what most of us reading this will accomplish in the next few years? You have to admit, he is getting his dollar's worth out of life!

Ralph
__________________
S/V FUGUE
HUNTER 36
KEMAH, TX
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #413  
Old 07-16-2010
smackdaddy's Avatar
Last Man Standing
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 12,950
Thanks: 80
Thanked 72 Times in 66 Posts
Rep Power: 8
smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough
Thanks for the update Ralph. Yes indeed - he's doing some cool stuff.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

S/V Dawn Treader - 1989 Hunter Legend 40
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #414  
Old 07-16-2010
Jeff_H's Avatar
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Annapolis, Md
Posts: 6,521
Thanks: 5
Thanked 84 Times in 65 Posts
Rep Power: 10
Jeff_H has a spectacular aura about Jeff_H has a spectacular aura about Jeff_H has a spectacular aura about
In what must be a near first, KeelHaulin and I are essentially in agreement. One of the good news-bad news realities of sailing offshore single-handed (or short-0handed) is that it really requires a wide range of knowledge and skill to do so with a reasonable level of risk management. Its not about being bubble-wrapped, it is about acting responsibly in life and with your life.

From the beginning of time, people were willing to go through an apprenticeship to learn life giving skills. It was obviously not called an apprenticeship, but even in traditional societies, parents passed along necessary life skills to their children in one form or another.

But all of a sudden we are a society that wants to 'just do it' without putting in the time and effort to learn even rudimentary skills. We think that if we can buy something we can do whatever we feel like with it right now. You might be able to buy a boat, but you can't buy safety at sea in a small craft by yourself other than through taking the time to learn and practice.

And for what it is worth, if we are going to banter about metaphors and anecdotes, lets be clear and accurate with our examples; Ferdinand Magellan and much of his crew did about as much of an apprenticeship as one could do in those days. Ferdinand Magellan first went to sea as a 25 year old, and over a 12 year period, working his way up through the naval ranks, including fighting in a number of naval battles and sailing more than half way around the world under Sequeira to Malacca in Indonesia and making a number of other major passages before leaving on his epic voyage.

Even with that experience he left Spain with five ships and 250 experienced seaman. Only one ship with 18 seamen returned. He died partially of hubris, in an unnecessary battle he chose to fight was against overwhelming numbers.

Had he done an apprenticeship of the native culture he was attacking; respecting the natives enough to have understood that this was not a handful of poorly armed savages, he and more of his men might have survived and would have better accomplished the mission that he set off to accomplish.

And so while I agree that as a society we have perhaps sought reduce risk perhaps beyond a reasonable level, by the same token, expecting someone to spend enough time to develop skills before setting off is not about creating a nanny-state and all about expecting people to act with some reasonable level of responsibility.

Respectfully,
Jeff
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Curmudgeon at Large- and rhinestone in the rough, sailing my Farr 11.6 on the Chesapeake Bay and part-time purveyor of marine supplies
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #415  
Old 07-16-2010
smackdaddy's Avatar
Last Man Standing
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 12,950
Thanks: 80
Thanked 72 Times in 66 Posts
Rep Power: 8
smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
But all of a sudden we are a society that wants to 'just do it' without putting in the time and effort to learn even rudimentary skills. We think that if we can buy something we can do whatever we feel like with it right now. You might be able to buy a boat, but you can't buy safety at sea in a small craft by yourself other than through taking the time to learn and practice.

And so while I agree that as a society we have perhaps sought reduce risk perhaps beyond a reasonable level, by the same token, expecting someone to spend enough time to develop skills before setting off is not about creating a nanny-state and all about expecting people to act with some reasonable level of responsibility.
Jeff, I think you've stated it pretty well. However, the straw man here is that the very idea of big sailing (BFS) is to do what you lay out in the first paragraph above. That's how this thread (and others herein) attempts to frame the argument, using Ronnie as an example. And, as I've stated exhaustively, that isn't the case at all.

The problem comes when someone arguing the "maritime ladder approach" cannot get past that straw man...to the point that they can't acknowledge "reasonable responsibility" as evidenced by a successful big sail. At that point they simply suck the life and adventure out of sailing through non-stop critique, even though the logic of what they're saying falls apart.

I'm just saying be objective. "Reasonable responsibility" is a very broad notion. And the truth, without doubt, lies somewhere between the extremes people try to establish here in this thread.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

S/V Dawn Treader - 1989 Hunter Legend 40
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #416  
Old 07-16-2010
KeelHaulin's Avatar
STARBOARD!!
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,662
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 10
KeelHaulin will become famous soon enough KeelHaulin will become famous soon enough
Again; I don't have time to get into it in detail, but rest assured I will respond to to the inaccuracies in this thread again. I hate to say this but you guys would be getting hammered big time on Anything Sailing. You know; the place where all of the old-salts that previously made massive contributions to this forum are hanging out now because they got tired arguing against this sort of B(f)S. You know... the place you got banned from Smack!

I'll invite you all to read the letters over on Latitude 38 written to Abby Sunderland. 90% of them are with disdain for her ill-fated attempt. Go check it out at Latitude 38 - The West's Leading Sailing and Marine Magazine ; select the e-book of the July issue and look for the article "Dear Abby"

So good of you Smack to compare a true offshore singlehanded sailor like Skip who has had multiple race crossings and won the SHTP before his loss of Wildflower to a goofball like Ronnie. Also nice of you to omit the facts of his experience and the situation that led to his stepping off of a boat that he kept seaworthy through several days of massive seas and storm force winds. THERE IS NO COMPARISON HERE

And the comparison of Magellan to Ronnie? Gimme a break. Magellan likely had more experience while in diapers than Ronnie does. You know; back then you had to EARN the position of Captain; let alone getting a commission to go out on an expedition. And that was on a SHIP; WITH 50+ CREW! What planet are you from dude??

Ronnie with a book deal; and a sponsorship for more BFS. That's very telling and pretty much proves my point (it's all about fame/fortune/"reality TV", etc)...

Last edited by KeelHaulin; 07-16-2010 at 01:29 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #417  
Old 07-16-2010
smackdaddy's Avatar
Last Man Standing
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 12,950
Thanks: 80
Thanked 72 Times in 66 Posts
Rep Power: 8
smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough
Quote:
Originally Posted by KeelHaulin View Post
Again; I don't have time to get into it in detail, but rest assured I will respond to to the inaccuracies in this thread again. I hate to say this but you guys would be getting hammered big time on Anything Sailing. You know; the place where all of the old-salts that previously made massive contributions to this forum are hanging out now because they got tired arguing against this sort of B(f)S. You know... the place you got banned from Smack!
Now Keel, no reason to get mean. That's all old news and is (as always) a little pricklier than it appears on the surface. Anyway, tell Cam and Sway and those other salts over there hi for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KeelHaulin View Post
I'll invite you all to read the letters over on Latitude 38 written to Abby Sunderland. 90% of them are with disdain for her ill-fated attempt. Go check it out at Latitude 38 - The West's Leading Sailing and Marine Magazine ; select the e-book of the July issue and look for the article "Dear Abby"
I agree with the disdain BTW. I've never been a fan at all of this youngest solo thing. It's asinine. So we agree there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KeelHaulin View Post
So good of you Smack to compare a true offshore singlehanded sailor like Skip who has had multiple race crossings and won the SHTP before his loss of Wildflower to a goofball like Ronnie. Also nice of you to omit the facts of his experience and the situation that led to his stepping off of a boat that he kept seaworthy through several days of massive seas and storm force winds. THERE IS NO COMPARISON HERE
I'm simply comparing outcomes - not individuals.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

S/V Dawn Treader - 1989 Hunter Legend 40
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #418  
Old 07-16-2010
RTB's Avatar
RTB RTB is offline
TROUBLE
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 318
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Rep Power: 6
RTB is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by KeelHaulin View Post
I hate to say this but you guys would be getting hammered big time on Anything Sailing.


Maybe you would get hammered at Sailing Anarchy....If the most vulgar animals on sailing forums can give Ronnie a pat on the back, and there are some "old salts" over there, he has earned at least a wee bit of respect.

Maybe racing in an organized event such as the SHTP, is different from the normal single-handed offshore sailing? Check ins are required, a safe boat is required, and positions are known. Maybe racing involves a little different sailing mentality-like the BFS kind?
__________________
S/V FUGUE
HUNTER 36
KEMAH, TX
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #419  
Old 07-16-2010
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: New York
Posts: 5,398
Thanks: 0
Thanked 14 Times in 14 Posts
Rep Power: 14
bubb2 has a spectacular aura about bubb2 has a spectacular aura about bubb2 has a spectacular aura about
LACK of experance never stoped my great ,great grandfather

<!-- /jumpto --><!-- bodytext -->Howard Blackburn (1859 – 1932) was a Gloucester, Massachusetts fisherman, born in Nova Scotia. Despite losing his fingers at sea in 1883, he prospered as a Gloucester businessman. Yearning for adventure, he twice sailed single-handed across the Atlantic Ocean, overcoming his disability and setting record times for the crossing.
</******>

Howard Blackburn was born in Nova Scotia in 1859. At the age of 18, he moved south to Massachusetts, seeking work as a fisherman, and became part of the Gloucester, Massachusetts fishing community.
Blackburn first rose to fame in 1883. While he was fishing on the schooner Grace L. Fears, a sudden winter storm caught him and a dorymate unprepared while they were in their banks dory, leaving them separated from the schooner. Blackburn began to row for shore, despite the loss of his mittens; he knew his hands would freeze, so he kept them in the hooked position that would allow him to row. He tried to save one hand with a sock and thus worsened his condition by freezing his toes and yet not being able to save his fingers. The crewmate gave up and laid down in the dory and died on the second day. Blackburn carried the body to shore for a proper grave.
After five days with virtually no food, water, or sleep, he made it to shore in Newfoundland; but his companion had died during the journey. Blackburn's hands were treated for frostbite, but could not be saved; he lost all his fingers, and many of his toes, and both thumbs to the first joint.
Blackburn returned to Gloucester a hero, and with the help of the town, managed to establish a successful saloon. Not content with this, he organised an expedition to the Klondike to join the gold rush; rather than go overland, he and his group sailed there, via Cape Horn. Howard, after a disagreement with his partners left the group in San Francisco after a short trip to Portland, Oregon to buy lumber to help finance the trip, and returned home never having panned for gold.
After the quest for gold failed, Blackburn turned his attention to a new challenge — to sail single-handed across the Atlantic Ocean. This had been done before, by Alfred "Centennial" Johnson in 1876, and Joshua Slocum had completed a single-handed circumnavigation in 1898; but for a man with no fingers to undertake such a voyage would be quite an accomplishment. He sailed from Gloucester in 1899, in the modified Gloucester Fishing Sloop, Great Western, and reached England after 62 days at sea.
Returning to Gloucester, Blackburn continued to prosper as a businessman; but he still hankered for adventure. In 1901, he sailed to Portugal in the twenty-five-foot Gloucester Fishing sloop Great Republic, making the trip in 39 days. In 1903 he again set out alone, this time in the sailing dory America, but was defeated by bad weather. Blackburn also circumnavigated the Eastern United States by going down the Mississippi River and back up the Eastern Seaboard. "Great Republic" may be seen at the Cape Ann Museum, in Gloucester.
Blackburn died in 1932; his funeral was attended by many of the people of Gloucester. He was buried in the Fishermen’s Rest section of Beechgrove Cemetery.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Never Forgotten

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #420  
Old 07-16-2010
smackdaddy's Avatar
Last Man Standing
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 12,950
Thanks: 80
Thanked 72 Times in 66 Posts
Rep Power: 8
smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough
Holy crap!!!!!! Are you serious Bubb? That is absolutely amazing!!!!!

Can I please steal that story for the BFS thread? That is freakin' legendary.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

S/V Dawn Treader - 1989 Hunter Legend 40
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Sea Snakes Ralph Doolin Seamanship Articles 0 01-21-2002 07:00 PM
Sea Snakes Ralph Doolin Cruising Articles 0 01-21-2002 07:00 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:22 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012