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Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > Vessels Lost, Missing, or in Danger
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  #1011  
Old 11-28-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Gross Tonnage is a confusing thing. It's actually related to internal volume, nothing to do with actual weight. Changing the ballast wouldn't have an affect on tonnage, net or gross. Net is the volume of the cargo carrying spaces (not sure how it's calculated for non-cargo ships), also unrelated to displacement.

Gross and net tonnage are what determines the staffing and regulatory requirements, as well as port fees and stuff for ships.
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  #1012  
Old 11-29-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
It will be economically impossible for a Tall Ship to stay in pristine enough condition to pass a serious modern safety inspection. They will have a very difficult time in defining what standard should be acceptable for a ship like Bounty. Further, they could restrict the severity of condition that they undertake a passage, but again, defining it will be difficult.

I think the most likely outcome will be a mandatory minimum crew that have minimum experience applicable to the vessel. Real professionals. They are much more likely to push back than adventuresome passengers lost in the romance of an 18th century tall ship.
As I have stated I am a volunteer on a Tall Ship.

She is very well maintained by a large bench of very multi skilled volunteers.

She was invited this year to attend a Tall Ships Festival in Nova Scotia. The Guild maintains very strict sailing guidlines and her travels are limited North to MA and South to Norfolk. They really wanted to do the trip because she was in high demand and had not been there since the 90's. They had her professionally surveyed. She was cleared for take off.

It depends on the organization that owns these Tall Ships as to there maintence and sailing protocols.

We do have a professional component to the crew also. The captain, fist mate & second mate are all licensed. One of our captains comes from the ranks of the professional maritime trades
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  #1013  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt.aaron View Post
I know the Western Union , the ship that laid the phone cable to Cuba was over and over again failing their Coast Guard Inspection, until finally they passed after a huge structural refit, and they are only sailing around the Bay with tourists. It's the Coast Guard who say's yay or nay in the end. Most of the big ocean Tall ships are steel, like the Eagle. The ones I see that are sea worthy are Sweedish or Dutch. It takes a government to fund these things properly.

Rhode Island is in the process of buiding a Tall Ship to represent their state. They took a steel haul and floated it down from Canada and are doing the rest of the work on the same island the Rhode Island National Guard fly out of. It is the Oliver Hazzard Perry Project. It will be the first user friendly Tall Ship for the handicapped.
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  #1014  
Old 11-29-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

While I have not read each and every posting in this compendium, I have reviewed the video of the Bounty lying ahull in that blow. I see some similarities to modern northwestern seiners, mostly flat-bottomed and shoal draft and carrying a lot of mast, booms, seine blocks and an antenna farm etc with notable weight and windage up high. Common practice in a blow or gale is to face the wind and seas and jog into them, minimizing the chances for a knock-down while maintaining a limited amount of maneuverability. Why would a captain not utilize his engines rather than lie ahull like that, waiting for the "big one" that would lay the boat over. I can only surmise vanity and ego, as in "that's not how it was done" so "we're not going to do it that way"
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  #1015  
Old 11-29-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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Originally Posted by Sal Paradise View Post
He also said "south east quadrant" in his August interview. ABout 11 minutes in.

Bounty captain talked about chasing hurricanes | The Chronicle Herald
Yes, Sal, I know, but that really wasn't my point. I was pointing out that an online news article, quoting one person (Neff) quoting another person (Walbridge) a WEEK later, was refered to as an "interview" of Walbridge. The same article was used here 3 million posts ago (hyperbole) as a supposedly authoritve source on the question of the possibility that the Harbor Master might have requested Bounty to leave the port. (Neff has a part-time position marketing/managing some city owned moorings, and is not employed by the Port Authority of New London).
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  #1016  
Old 11-29-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flatballer View Post
Gross Tonnage is a confusing thing. It's actually related to internal volume, nothing to do with actual weight.
You are quite right. I used to do a lot of admeasurment (tonnage) work. If you use all the tricks to reduce measured tonnage with the U.S. system, now only applicable for vessels that do not make international voyages, the upper length limit for a 100 G.T. vessel is 5000 feet!

Normally, a 100 G.T. vessel is under 100 feet long. The U.S. Statutory Tonnage Admeasurement system is one of the silliest regulatory regimes ever devised. This was one of the reasons for the establishment of an international tonnage system based on external measurements which is almost immune to any cute tricks.

Last edited by Roger Long; 11-29-2012 at 07:09 AM.
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Old 11-29-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by YukonJack View Post
..... The captain, fist mate & second mate are all licensed. One of our captains comes from the ranks of the professional maritime trades
Again, I believe the best outcome will be to find this totally inadequate.

Getting your profession ticket on a merchant ship, for example, allows for zero experience sailing an 18th century replica. The deck hands should have specific experience as well, when going offshore.

Nonsensical psuedo training, non-inspected vessel stuff should end.

Let them sit at dockside or putter around the bay, but if you want to move them in open water, the crew should be locked and loaded for anything. They should have serious experience, in addition to their ticket. Not just supervised. No joy rides.

I don't really care if one wants to risk their life. This example shows, in my opinion, that one may be convinced to take a risk they have no way to measure themselves and accept the reputation of the skipper as their guidance.
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  #1018  
Old 11-29-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flatballer View Post
Gross Tonnage is a confusing thing. It's actually related to internal volume, nothing to do with actual weight. Changing the ballast wouldn't have an affect on tonnage, net or gross. Net is the volume of the cargo carrying spaces (not sure how it's calculated for non-cargo ships), also unrelated to displacement.

Gross and net tonnage are what determines the staffing and regulatory requirements, as well as port fees and stuff for ships.
Then why did they take the ballast off?

Why have there been so many certificates issued over the last year?

Why doesn't it need to be inspected? Because the tonnage has been lowered.
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  #1019  
Old 11-29-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brewgyver View Post
Yes, Sal, I know, but that really wasn't my point. I was pointing out that an online news article, quoting one person (Neff) quoting another person (Walbridge) a WEEK later, was refered to as an "interview" of Walbridge. The same article was used here 3 million posts ago (hyperbole) as a supposedly authoritve source on the question of the possibility that the Harbor Master might have requested Bounty to leave the port. (Neff has a part-time position marketing/managing some city owned moorings, and is not employed by the Port Authority of New London).
If someone was talking to you about the way he was going to maneuver an Hurricane and you were part of the crew that was going to do it I bet that one month later you would remember very well that talk. There are some conversations that are irrelevant and we forget quickly but a talk about how you are going to sail an Hurricane? I guess that would be hard to forget

Regards

Paulo
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  #1020  
Old 11-29-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal Paradise View Post
...
But Barksdale described how a large wave hit the ship, suddenly heeling the entire vessel over on its starboard side, masts in the water, and apparently throwing everyone into the sea.

Its a description of the motions of the ship.
the dictionary defines roll as...
roll - to move with repeated turning or rotating motions, or cause something to move in this way


We just saw a video of Bounty, as John described it "rolling" . Two people died after they were thrown in the water when the ship rolled on its side. Not a rumor. A description.
On that video we saw the boat rolling a lot. On a previous post (long time ago) I explained that roll was a big problem for these boats on heavy weather. They have a limited AVS and unlike one of our boats they cannot carry on a storm an amount of sail that prevents that roll without the risk of being knocked down by a violent gust and if that happen the boat would not come up again.

Sailing one of there boats in bad weather has little to do with sailing a modern sailing boat on the same situation.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 11-29-2012 at 10:54 AM.
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