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  #1021  
Old 11-29-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
Again, I believe the best outcome will be to find this totally inadequate.

Getting your profession ticket on a merchant ship, for example, allows for zero experience sailing an 18th century replica. The deck hands should have specific experience as well, when going offshore.

Nonsensical psuedo training, non-inspected vessel stuff should end.

Let them sit at dockside or putter around the bay, but if you want to move them in open water, the crew should be locked and loaded for anything. They should have serious experience, in addition to their ticket. Not just supervised. No joy rides.

I don't really care if one wants to risk their life. This example shows, in my opinion, that one may be convinced to take a risk they have no way to measure themselves and accept the reputation of the skipper as their guidance.
I would hate to see all tall masts as dockside attraction even if I believe that a strict ruling is needed. Yukon's ship, Gazela, is a very different ship from Bounty: It is already (not for much) a XX century sailing ship as most of the tall ships around. By design they make an huge difference to Bounty (a XVIII century design) in all aspects including seaworthiness.

Yukon says that their organization does already a strict ruling in what regards the conditions the ship can sail and that is basically coastal with fair weather.

I don't see any harm in that providing the ship is maintained in good condition (as he says).

I just believe that should not be left to the good sense of the owner or the organization that owns the ship. The ships should be subjected to mandatory regular serious inspections not only in what regards safety means but also structural ones and in function of that should be classified in regards to what they can do and sail and if needed, limiting them to dock attractions.

I believe also that each ship should be regulated in what regards the number of professional sailors needed to sail the boat safely and the required qualifications.

We, as most countries with a sea history, have several tall ships and some of them have circumnavigated many times and are able to do that in all safety. Sagres have done that last year, one more time.



but this is a XX century steel boat that has as crew navy sailors and Captain (training vessel). They get ,young people aboard for training or enjoying sailing (even while circumnavigating) but if needed or in bad weather the ship will not be sailed by them but by the permanent crew.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 11-29-2012 at 07:55 AM.
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  #1022  
Old 11-29-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I explained that roll was a big problem for this boats on heavy weather.

Paulo
Especially when you have just removed some ballast and repositioned the rest.
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  #1023  
Old 11-29-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Wow, "heaving-to" is putting it politely, looks like lying ahull is more like it... Hell, that scrap of sail they're flying isn't all that much bigger than my storm jib, or trysail...

Gotta admit, she DOES leave a pretty damn good slick to weather... (grin)

Always tough to tell from photos or video, but I'm guessing the sustained wind speed for most of that vid is perhaps 35, with higher gusts?

Can you imagine the behavior of that pig in hurricane-force winds, in the Gulf Stream?

Well, at least having the thing starting to sink beneath you would likely dampen the rolling somewhat...

Yeah, looks like a hell of a ship on which to "chase hurry-canes"... Get that pig in the Southeast Quadrant, you'd have a "pretty good ride", for sure...
Really! It looks downright unstable. I can't believe how rapidly it heeled...like a folded paper boat. It is certainly not hove-to in any sense of the word but rather surviving a beam sea under essentially bare poles. Makes you wonder why anyone would stay aboard after the first time it experienced a moderate blow. After watching that video, I'm convinced that there were MAJOR design issues with this PROP. Compare it to Paulo's picture above which shows a square rigger actually sailing nicely in what looks to be a 15 knot wind. These boats CAN sail as I noticed in and around NYC during the Bicentennial. They get a lot of leeward slippage but they are able to point up in a heavy wind and they are able to heave-to.
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Last edited by smurphny; 11-29-2012 at 08:58 AM.
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  #1024  
Old 11-29-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I would hate to see all tall masts as dockside attraction even if I believe that a strict ruling is needed.....
Personally, I couldn't care less if they were relegated to dockside, but that wasn't what I suggested.

There should be enough professional and experienced crew aboard to take one in open water, if necessary.

I don't think the requirement needs to be on "Tall Ships", which is essentially undefined anyway. The requirement to have experience should be specific to the design. Sailing a steel hull 20th century designed square rigger would not qualify, in my book, to be applicable to an 18th century replica.
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  #1025  
Old 11-29-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Yeah, it looks not that stable. And in fact, thats how they all went into the water, and how 2 people died - when the Bounty rolled over.SalParadise
At least be honest enough to print what you said......you said ROLLED OVER '

Quote:
According to the Coast Guard it did.
http://hamptonroads.com/2012/10/boun...tinues-captain
We’re still hopeful,” said Capt. Joe Kelly, commanding officer of the Elizabeth City Coast Guard Air Station. Walbridge and Christian were in the process of getting aboard the life rafts when the ship rolled, throwing them overboard, Kelly said.
They said rolled not rolled over

Quote:
But Barksdale described how a large wave hit the ship, suddenly heeling the entire vessel over on its starboard side, masts in the water, and apparently throwing everyone into the sea.
Heeled is another sailing term thats doesnt mean rolled over

Quote:
We just saw a video of Bounty, as John described it "rolling" . Two people died after they were thrown in the water when the ship rolled on its side. Not a rumor. A description.
Jon who self addmittedly uses his words carefully said rolled on its side not rolled over

Rolled Over is different than roll. In most instances I have heard relaing to sailing boats a roll over means the mast passes to a 180 degrees from upright.



A rollover is a type of vehicle accident in which a vehicle tips over onto its side or roof. The most common cause of a rollover is traveling too fast while turning



Either YOU exagerrated the phrase for effect and risked starting a rumor or were just ignorant of the differentce between rolled, heeled, and rolled over. I temd to think the first as you again write down the ENTIRETY of what you said in your weak defense.

Sal you tend to stretch the truth in your posts, you are the one who psoted the picture supposed of the last moments of the Bounty, but were FOUND OUT and had to retract, and when confronted got personal. Try and stay civil.

This incident is bad enough without creating an additon drama in it implicating the Bounty rolled over. Especially in light of the possibilty the lightened the ballast. Wont take long for the average person to draw a line between less balllast to the ship having rolled over ( which didnt occur)
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Last edited by chef2sail; 11-29-2012 at 10:10 AM.
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  #1026  
Old 11-29-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
...
There should be enough professional and experienced crew aboard to take one in open water, if necessary.

I don't think the requirement needs to be on "Tall Ships", which is essentially undefined anyway. The requirement to have experience should be specific to the design. Sailing a steel hull 20th century designed square rigger would not qualify, in my book, to be applicable to an 18th century replica.
I agree. That was just what I am saying. Tall ships are all not the same.

Regards

Paulo
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  #1027  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post
Especially when you have just removed some ballast and repositioned the rest.
Where do you have seen that notice about change in ballast? I am just curious about that. The ballast on this boats should be the one that he was designed to have.

Regarding roll on these boats more ballast than what was meant by design could mean more roll. That's strange but truth. A stiffer boat (than what was designed to be) could be a more dangerous boat precisely because it would roll more.

Regards

Paulo
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  #1028  
Old 11-29-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Since most of us are in agreement that Tall ships are not the same as the giant sailing government vessels we see in the OP sails etc, how can we govern them.

We have a class C tall ship in our marina/ Witchcraft (60 ft) which is classified as a type C tall ship built in 1902. It goes out a sails just like I do and I have been on her sailing many times. I have posted a few of the tall ships which participated in OP Sail Baltimore this summer. Some are the goverment vatiety, some are privately owned

How can you regulate them? Carrying passangers I am sure is one of the delinaiations. How can you prevent a privately owned craft from going to sea? It would have to more than the basic sailing equipment we are required to carry of course.

None of this exonerates the sailing into a hurricane of course.
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  #1029  
Old 11-29-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

A question. The original Bounty was 91 feet on deck had a 24-foot beam, drew 13 feet and had a displacement of 215 tons. The new Bounty was 120 feet on deck, had a 30-foot beam also drew 13 feet and had a displacement of 412 tons. Wonder what if any effect upsizing the Bounty had an effect on the ship's seaworthiness.
---------------------
Seems to me that everyone refers to the ship as the HMS Bounty. As far as I know she was never part of the Royal Navy (or any other navy for that matter). Just a quibble but I find it annoying
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  #1030  
Old 11-29-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
...

How can you regulate them? Carrying passangers I am sure is one of the delinaiations. How can you prevent a privately owned craft from going to sea? It would have to more than the basic sailing equipment we are required to carry of course.

...
I cannot but a state can just making mandatory a licence that specifies in what conditions (coastal/unlimited; if coastal in what weather conditions; crew: number and qualifications) a given ship can sail, private or not. For that the boat has to be thoroughly inspected regularly to determine or maintain is qualification and licence.

You know that in most European countries all recreational boats have that kind of inspections and classifications regarding boat licence (so it can be done) but I am just talking just about ships, or big sailing boats that private or not can carry a considerable number of passengers, paying or not, even if the passengers are disguised as crew in training.

I guess that is not nothing new for US. Do not government inspect private cars condition?

Regards

Paulo
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