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  #1141  
Old 12-05-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Compared the Bounty video I just posted to this tall ship and let me know how you think they compare. Which would you rather sail on in a gale. What is the better designed ship? Which ship is designed to cross oceans safely?

Here are spec for the Soren:
http://sorenlarsen.co.nz/specifications.html


Last edited by casey1999; 12-05-2012 at 08:21 PM.
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  #1142  
Old 12-05-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
Found this vid, it answers some of my questions:
Well there's a job you can shove up your bum.

The guy with he camera took 3:45 to get up to the yards. He should have been whipped!

Great vision on those Hero cameras.
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  #1143  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

They did have the sails up in the hurricane. They had to reef them, that took courage going aloft.
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  #1144  
Old 12-05-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

I know how a boat like that is sailed (I like tall ships) and that's why I have said that sailing a boat like this in stormy conditions is not a thing for amateurs but for a very athletic and qualified crew and not a small one. For stormy conditions I don't mean a hurricane.

I really think you guys are exaggerating in what regards the sailing potential of the boat and in what regards boat condition and design. The boat was designed according to plans and made bigger. I bet that those alterations were made by a qualified NA. That alteration of ballast don't seem to me to have a great importance in what regards boat seaworthiness. It was projected by a NA and was designed to give the same RM that the boat had before. The alteration on the water line was not significant.

The boat was completely renovated few years ago and nothing remained from the original boat in what regards hull and rigs. On the shipyard where the boat was repaired recently, the same that made in the last years all the boat renew work, they said that the boat was in good condition.

What seems wrong to me was not properly the boat but the wiring we saw on the photos, the condition of the Generators (that they did not review on this maintenance) and the nonexistence of independent water pumps, namely diesel driven ones. That has special importance in a boat that the shipyard acknowledges that leaked. Some leaking can be normal on a wooden ship of that size but that only make more necessary to have a very good pumping system with an independent back up system and of course, clean bilges not to clog the pumps.

This is a XVIII century designed ship, that has the performance of a boat of that time and requires an athletic expert professional crew to be sailed in anything less than fair weather. Not even with a top crew a XVIII century captain would have sailed this ship to the proximity of an hurricane, if he could have avoided that.

Regarding the maintenance of the boat and its condition:

Quote:

BRIDGEWATER — The replica of HMS Bounty returned to the water after a month of scheduled repairs just one week before it set sail from Connecticut on Capt. Robin Walbridge’s birthday last Thursday.
...
Eric Graves, president of the Boothbay Harbor Shipyard in Maine, said his yard completed about four weeks of routine maintenance on the vessel. The yard has also carried out two major refits of the ship over the past 10 years,

The work that was just completed included scraping and painting the bottom of the vessel, refinishing some interior woodwork and making three new spars.
.....
No planks needed to be replaced on the bottom part of the ship, but there was some “very minor” planking to do at the top of the hull, he said.
....
Graves said it was not included on the work order for his yard to check the generators, but he said the Bounty’s maintenance crew checked them and there were no problems.

There have also been reports that the ship’s hull leaked. Graves said while the shipyard did some caulking, it was “very minor; everything looked pretty good,” and there was no concern of excessive leaking.

...Boothbay Harbor Shipyard built a new hull in 2002, including replacing all the bottom planking, the rudder and 95 per cent of all the frames.
...
A yacht brokerage firm also said the ship’s John Deere engines were new in 2004 and that one of the 35-kilowatt John Deere generators was new in 2007 and the other was rebuilt that year.

The square sails and standing rigging were replaced at a boatyard in Alabama in 2005. In 2006, the Boothbay yard replaced much of the boat from the waterline up, including the ribs, the frames, bulwarks and planks on the deck. The interior was also changed, with four cabins and a new galley added.
...


Shipyard: Months of repairs on Bounty rang no alarms | The Chronicle Herald
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Last edited by PCP; 12-05-2012 at 09:41 PM.
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  #1145  
Old 12-05-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brewgyver View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
(snippage)
Well, people learning to first sail aboard more sensibly sized boats might be a start...

Among the boats I delivered this year were a Gozzard 44, and a Cabo Rico 42, to new owners... In each case, they were the FIRST boat - of any size or kind - that either one had ever owned...

On the CR, I could hardly see around the plotter... (grin)
(Image snipped for those on 1200 baud dial up )
Jon, that seems like a really good point. Since we're waiting, may I interrupt to ask something? I'm on my first sail boat (30' Catalina), and when I was shopping for it I wondered if I was pushing the edge of too big. I had found a good deal on a 25, but almost had a concussion trying to stand up in the cabin. So then it was between a 27 and 30. I have since been told by a couple of my saltier dockmates that the 30 was a good choice. I would value your opinion, along with the other more experienced posters here. TIA.
I've always reckoned 30' is at or near the upper limit of a reasonable size boat to learn to sail on... I'm sure you've made a good choice...

The reason larger boats are not as effective as learning platforms, is the difficulty for a beginning sailor to feel the difference any of his inputs make, whether it be modest steering adjustments, slight trim adjustments, whatever... That's why smaller dinghies or keelboats are so much more effective as learning tools, the feedback is instantaneous, and usually much more apparent... I just don't see how one can really learn much about sailing from a 44-footer with hydraulic steering, or certainly not very quickly, at any rate...

I suspect that's one of the reasons I see so many cruisers today motoring everywhere... So many started out big from the get-go, they never experienced that feel a small boat sailing in the groove, finding that sweet spot with one hand on the tiller, the mainsheet in the other, and the subtle interplay that makes sailing such a pleasure...

Good luck, you'll do just fine with your Catalina... One suggestion I'd make, try to do some racing as crew at every opportunity, you'll learn lots in a jiffy that way...
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  #1146  
Old 12-06-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I know how a boat like that is sailed (I like tall ships) and that's why I have said that sailing a boat like this in stormy conditions is not a thing for amateurs but for a very athletic and qualified crew and not a small one. For stormy conditions I don't mean a hurricane.

I really think you guys are exaggerating in what regards the sailing potential of the boat and in what regards boat condition and design. The boat was designed according to plans and made bigger. I bet that those alterations were made by a qualified NA. That alteration of ballast don't seem to me to have a great importance in what regards boat seaworthiness. It was projected by a NA and was designed to give the same RM that the boat had before. The alteration on the water line was not significant.

The boat was completely renovated few years ago and nothing remained from the original boat in what regards hull and rigs. On the shipyard where the boat was repaired recently, the same that made in the last years all the boat renew work, they said that the boat was in good condition.

What seems wrong to me was not properly the boat but the wiring we saw on the photos, the condition of the Generators (that they did not review on this maintenance) and the nonexistence of independent water pumps, namely diesel driven ones. That has special importance in a boat that the shipyard acknowledges that leaked. Some leaking can be normal on a wooden ship of that size but that only make more necessary to have a very good pumping system with an independent back up system and of course, clean bilges not to clog the pumps.

This is a XVIII century designed ship, that has the performance of a boat of that time and requires an athletic expert professional crew to be sailed in anything less than fair weather. Not even with a top crew a XVIII century captain would have sailed this ship to the proximity of an hurricane, if he could have avoided that.

Regarding the maintenance of the boat and its condition:

Quote:

BRIDGEWATER — The replica of HMS Bounty returned to the water after a month of scheduled repairs just one week before it set sail from Connecticut on Capt. Robin Walbridge’s birthday last Thursday.
...
Eric Graves, president of the Boothbay Harbor Shipyard in Maine, said his yard completed about four weeks of routine maintenance on the vessel. The yard has also carried out two major refits of the ship over the past 10 years,

The work that was just completed included scraping and painting the bottom of the vessel, refinishing some interior woodwork and making three new spars.
.....
No planks needed to be replaced on the bottom part of the ship, but there was some “very minor” planking to do at the top of the hull, he said.
....
Graves said it was not included on the work order for his yard to check the generators, but he said the Bounty’s maintenance crew checked them and there were no problems.

There have also been reports that the ship’s hull leaked. Graves said while the shipyard did some caulking, it was “very minor; everything looked pretty good,” and there was no concern of excessive leaking.

...Boothbay Harbor Shipyard built a new hull in 2002, including replacing all the bottom planking, the rudder and 95 per cent of all the frames.
...
A yacht brokerage firm also said the ship’s John Deere engines were new in 2004 and that one of the 35-kilowatt John Deere generators was new in 2007 and the other was rebuilt that year.

The square sails and standing rigging were replaced at a boatyard in Alabama in 2005. In 2006, the Boothbay yard replaced much of the boat from the waterline up, including the ribs, the frames, bulwarks and planks on the deck. The interior was also changed, with four cabins and a new galley added.
...


Shipyard: Months of repairs on Bounty rang no alarms | The Chronicle Herald
The video I posted was taken Dec 2010 (2 years ago). This was after all of the work was done that you post above. This is from the poster of the video:
Uploaded by Marc Castells on Dec 15, 2010

"Sailing the Bounty II from Maine to Puerto Rico. In this video we're furling the fore-course sail because it's ripped up at one of the seams. We didn't get to finish because the fore-topmast snapped above us while we were aloft. You can see it hanging in the last few seconds. The royal yard is sitting on top of the t'gallant yard. I had to trim this video by 3 min for it to fit on youtube so if you actually watch it all the way through there will be some parts that skip. And again, the camera is tilted up a bit so you can't see what I'm doing with my hands but it makes for some cool shots of the bow while we're sailing."

If you look at the video at the very end, you will see the top mast broken and hanging, along with a lot of standing/running rigging. Lucky no one was injured. You wonder how the compelted the sail furl (as they state they did no finish because the top mast broke). In the video a lot of the rigging on the yard arm looks rusty (at the bolt connections). Imagine if the yard arm breaks loose with crew on it. If you pull up the video on youtube (not by watching on the posting), you will see all the interesting comments. Seems to me the "movie ship" Bounty was falling apart 2 years ago.

Search this on you tube to get the comments:
Furling fore-course sail on HMS Bounty and broken topmast

Last edited by casey1999; 12-06-2012 at 11:41 AM.
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  #1147  
Old 12-06-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

This is another video from the same youtube poster as I posted a couple posts ago. This was taken Dec 2010 on the same trip Maine to PR. The video is describe as "Ship check while hove to":
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  #1148  
Old 12-06-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
. I had to trim this video by 3 min for it to fit on youtube
He should have trimmed it by another 7 minutes to make it 3 minutes long. Great video quality but boring as bats piss/
if you have a video camera just remember that the story can be told in 3 or 4 minutes, whatever the story is.

Leaving dock blowing kiss to mum / getting underway / exiting harbour 3 minutes
Climbing the mast and playing with =the sail is one story. 3 mins
In the Galley preparing dinner and serving it / crew eating 3 minutes
Sleeping arrangement 3 mins
Being on watch 3 mins incl dolphin footage
some drama/emergency etc 3 mins
what the engine room does 3 mins
arriving home/ waving good buy to ship 3 mins

And thats your whole TV commercial half hour program. thats what people are used to watching.

if you are really good you can do it in 60 second segments.

of all my videos on Youtube onely one is 4;15 the rest are shorter... some only just above 1 minute. even then some may think they are boring!

So if you buy a Hero camera EDIT!!!!!!!!!!!!


And Casey Edit the previous posters post!
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post
He should have trimmed it by another 7 minutes to make it 3 minutes long. Great video quality but boring as bats piss/
if you have a video camera just remember that the story can be told in 3 or 4 minutes, whatever the story is.

Leaving dock blowing kiss to mum / getting underway / exiting harbour 3 minutes
Climbing the mast and playing with =the sail is one story. 3 mins
In the Galley preparing dinner and serving it / crew eating 3 minutes
Sleeping arrangement 3 mins
Being on watch 3 mins incl dolphin footage
some drama/emergency etc 3 mins
what the engine room does 3 mins
arriving home/ waving good buy to ship 3 mins

And thats your whole TV commercial half hour program. thats what people are used to watching.

if you are really good you can do it in 60 second segments.

of all my videos on Youtube onely one is 4;15 the rest are shorter... some only just above 1 minute. even then some may think they are boring!

So if you buy a Hero camera EDIT!!!!!!!!!!!!


And Casey Edit the previous posters post!
Mark,
Went to your web site looking for your videos, but could not find. There were however a lot of pics of beuatiful people and not so much of actual sailing. How about some more pics of sailing in some extreme conditions. Must have had a lot on a circumnavigation.
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  #1150  
Old 12-06-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
The video I posted was taken Dec 2010 (2 years ago). This was after all of the work was done that you post above. This is from the poster of the video:
Uploaded by Marc Castells on Dec 15, 2010

"Sailing the Bounty II from Maine to Puerto Rico. In this video we're furling the fore-course sail because it's ripped up at one of the seams. We didn't get to finish because the fore-topmast snapped above us while we were aloft. You can see it hanging in the last few seconds. The royal yard is sitting on top of the t'gallant yard. I had to trim this video by 3 min for it to fit on youtube so if you actually watch it all the way through there will be some parts that skip. And again, the camera is tilted up a bit so you can't see what I'm doing with my hands but it makes for some cool shots of the bow while we're sailing."

If you look at the video at the very end, you will see the top mast broken and hanging, along with a lot of standing/running rigging. Lucky no one was injured. You wonder how the compelted the sail furl (as they state they did no finish because the top mast broke). In the video a lot of the rigging on the yard arm looks rusty (at the bolt connections). Imagine if the yard arm breaks loose with crew on it. If you pull up the video on youtube (not by watching on the posting), you will see all the interesting comments. Seems to me the "movie ship" Bounty was falling apart 2 years ago.

Search this on you tube to get the comments:
Furling fore-course sail on HMS Bounty and broken topmast
Casey, these boats were like that, they break a lot and need a lot of maintenance, specially in what regards smaller spars. That is why on the original Bounty crew (as in any other boat of that time) a carpenter and two helping hands (one of them qualified) were part of the crew. Some breakage was to be expected in any voyage.

Regards

Paulo
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