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  #1211  
Old 12-10-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Because the Judge and the Jury in law cases are always people who do not know the person on trial. And they only have to go on what they are given in that trial-Markofsealifes.
True about the judge and the jury, however the people posting are neither the judge nor the jury. They are the prosecution. The people posting her are the prosecuters....trying to submit heresay evidence and conjecture as fact. We are not talking about the obvious facts that he sailed away from the dock. But what he was thinking in his mind...and his leaving in one hour thats a fact so they could not refuse to leave is the fiction. It is the conclusions drawn from the facts which are posted as facts by some are merely speculation.

Quote:
The Captain took his ship to the pass of an hurricane when he knew he was there and could avoid it, staying in port, diverting to a safer port or sailing in the opposite direction of the Hurricane path.
- thats a fact
Thats what he did and that was a terrible error in judgement which makes him responsible for the loss of life and the ships sinking

Quote:
He made absurd statements to convince the crew to follow him in this adventure(the Bounty would be more safe at sea than in a port).
the fact is he made a statements the Bounty would be safer at sea than port. the speculation- that they were absurd and that he made the statement to convince the crew to follow him

Quote:
He knew that the boat made water, that the bilges where not clean and that obviously could lead to clogging of the pumps in the event of flooding and even so sailed way to unnecessarily face terrible weather.
the facts- the bilges were not clean, the pumps clogged and he sailed into bad weather/ the speculation- the water ingress was normal and the failed pump was caused by a clogged pump not operator error

Quote:
He could be a very nice man, a quality but all these facts tell us, without doubt, that he was a reckless captain. This are facts Dave, not snippets of information neither hysterical assumptions
.

See I could agree with this if the statement said he was a reckless Captain in this instance, but thats not what is meant. Now you are trying to say he was always a reckless Captain in general.

the facts- he was a professional captain, the statements about his seasmanship from first hand observers was that it was good and knowledable, NO ONE of the first hand observers, crew or people who had ever been with him ever said he was a reckless captain. That does count for something, inn fact that superceeds and speculation that he was a reckless captain in the past
the speculation- from only the social bloggers not the first hand observers that he was reckless

It makes no difference to me that he was a nice man...thats an attribute you are putting on me and others. That isnt germane to this discuission. To dismiss what I or others say based on that we think is is a nice man, is failing to recognize we think he was a professional, experienced, knowlegeable leader who made a terrible mistake thats all. Thats a pretty simple explainaton for what happened and usually the simple explaination is the easiest to prove by fact. The contiual theories and conjecture base on a few snippets of information is actually reckless in itself.

What they and I have said was that he was professional, he was experienced, he was knowledgeable. Those are facts borne out by statements. The other fact is that this professional, knowledgable, experienced man made a mistake/ error in judgement which caused a loss of life and ship. The speculation- he was a cult leader, they followed him because they were mesmerized, he left in an hour so they couldnt get more information to not go, he was a reckless captain all the time and before, the ship was in bad repair, the ship couldnt survuve the weather it had countless times before, he was a ******** artists.

Try and really differentiate between the actual facts, and the conclusions drawn from those facts as well as speculation and theorizing.

Truth of the matter is tghis man has been in control of this ship for 17 years. This is the first time he made an agregious error which he was brought up on charges for or being cited for.

Because you get caught speeding...doesnt mean that you are a reckless driver all the time and a terrible driver. It means that partuicular time you were. Because you have a car crash doesnt make you a reckless driver for all of history...it does for that particular incident. There is danger is extrpolating a statement to define the Cpatian by this one incident in his life. Albet he will be defined by it by many and the aggregious mistake/ error in judgement he made.

Funny though the ones who knew him first hand, even the crew who was on the boat during the sinking find that not to be true. Why is that do you think? Why dont you hear them all saying he was reckless, a ******** artist and going after him for what shppened?

These are the first hand people now? Listen to them carefully, you dont hear any referneces to many of the speculative things attrributed tot he Captain posted here. Note none of us defend him in this incident of having good judgement.

Why cant the explaination just be a simple one. It doesnt get good press/ It makes for boring posts. There is no spectacle. All the things why some ridicule the CG invetigation. If it doesnt come out with the results they expect, or they think it should we have already seen a number of posters say it isnt correct before it happens.
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Last edited by chef2sail; 12-10-2012 at 02:21 AM.
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  #1212  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

After all is said and done...I still say to just follow the money.

1. The boat was built as a movie prop to be burned at the end of the filming.

2. Brando did not want it burned even though I suppose that he read the ****** before taking the part. Not sure as to when he voiced his objection.

3. For X years it set at a dock as a tourist attraction until Ted Turner aquired it when he bought the movie rights to many of MGM films. When he learned that he had the Bounty he told his accountants to get rid of it and donated it to Y

4. Y may have sold it to Z etc etc but during this period it was being "updated" to take volunteers out for sailing adventures

5. How many times has it been up for sale during this period? It was up for sale when it met its demise off of Hatterous. Look at the Insurance situation all during its life...it's maintenance/operating costs and retro fit costs....its income stream and who or what last owned it

Just follow the money..
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Old 12-10-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post

Quote PCP:
He made absurd statements to convince the crew to follow him in this adventure(the Bounty would be more safe at sea than in a port).


... the speculation- that they were absurd and that he made the statement to convince the crew to follow him.
Sometimes I think, that you did not learn anything with this thread and did not really changed opinion regarding the first statements you have made here.

It is obviously a very stupid and wrong thing to say that a XVII century designed wood ship is more safe in a port than at sea in what regards facing a hurricane. This is no speculation is a fact. Regarding a ship the first concern of a no reckless captain is not with his boat but with his crew and they would be much safer on land than out on the sea facing an Hurricane. Where is the speculation here?

If not to dismiss the huge risk the crew would take sailing into a hurricane and to convince them to follow him in this adventure why do you think the Captain had said then that the Ship would be more safe at sea than in Port?

Where is the speculation here

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post

Try and really differentiate between the actual facts, and the conclusions drawn from those facts as well as speculation and theorizing.

Quote PCP:
He knew that the boat made water, that the bilges where not clean and that obviously could lead to clogging of the pumps in the event of flooding and even so sailed way to unnecessarily face terrible weather.


... the speculation- the water ingress was normal and the failed pump was caused by a clogged pump not operator error
Here I have some difficulty in understanding what you mean but that should be my bad English as you are always pointing out

"The water ingress was normal"???

I did no state that the water ingress was not normal, or abnormal I just stated that the boat was making water and that the Captain new that. Where is the speculation here?!!! I did not state that the pumps had failed because they were clogged, I stated that they were clogged and that had obvious consequences on their poor performance. Stated also that the Captain knew that the Bilges were dirt and that would cause the clogging of the pumps in the eventuality of prolonged use.

Where is the speculation here? All facts.

Operator error on the pumps???? if someone on that boat deserves credit is Barksdale, the one responsible by engines and pumps working.

It seems that you don't read what is posted on this thread. Barksdale had stated that the pumps were clogged and that they, including the Captain were despairingly trying to unclog the pumps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post

Try and really differentiate between the actual facts, and the conclusions drawn from those facts as well as speculation and theorizing.

Quote PCP:
He could be a very nice man, a quality but all these facts tell us, without doubt, that he was a reckless captain. This are facts Dave, not snippets of information neither hysterical assumptions


See I could agree with this if the statement said he was a reckless Captain in this instance, but thats not what is meant. Now you are trying to say he was always a reckless Captain in general.
...

....
I am not trying to say that he, as a Captain, was reckless, I am stating that.

And I am saying that because unlike what you are saying this was not an isolated incident, it was just the one where he run out of luck. He was taking unreasonable risks with that boat and the crew for a long time.

As it was stated by him, the organization, the crew and his wife, the ship had been sailed by him previously several times in hurricanes or near hurricanes. Considering that XVII century designed wooden ship that is a reckless behavior that only a reckless captain would indulge.

No speculation, here, just facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
the speculation- from only the social bloggers not the first hand observers that he was reckless... The contiual theories and conjecture base on a few snippets of information is actually reckless in itself.
....
You mean, reckless the ones that consider him reckless based in facts???

Dave, that does not make sense!

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 12-10-2012 at 12:21 PM.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
I don't know, seems far from clear to me, according to their website...

Sounds like a whole lot of "volunteering" going on there, to me...
Jon, I am not interested in discussing this further and I think it does not matter. As you say they would have to work on the boat before being accepted as "voluntaries" but it turned out those voluntaries were paid, at least if we accept what they have said on that other professional forum, I mean people from the Bounty.

I am quite sure that the payment had nothing to do with the one of a professional mariner and they were not professional mariners, since as you have pointed out anybody could be a voluntary if he worked some time for free.

The important thing here is that they were not professionals, but amateurs and that a sailing experience was not even required to become part of that symbolically paid crew. That movie that was posted showing them working with some heavy weather on the rig is very illustrative about their level of qualification as crew for a tallship.

Regards

Paulo
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Old 12-10-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post
Look at it this way, if there is ever a jury selected to judge the facts of this matter they won't be seafarers... They will be "normal" people from city's, towns, farms, factories far removed from the sea... And they will be instructed by a judge whose longest voyage was the ferry to Coney Island.
But we will know that they will do a,pretty good job in resolving issues we are arguing about.



Or I hope so anyway!
Yes, we always hope that. Sadly, the rules of the court and the occasional incompetence of a lawyer work against that outcome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lancelot9898 View Post
After all is said and done...I still say to just follow the money.
I agree. If, as it has been reported, one of the generators wasn't working, why not? If Walbridge was the captain he's been reported to be, one would think he'd be asking the owners for the money to fix whatever he couldn't or at least to supply the money for the parts so he could fix it.

Christian said they were always fussing over the engines. On a well kept vessel (and everyone who knew it said it was costly to keep it up, that's why Turner got rid of it) there wouldn't be any need to always fuss over the engines if they were kept in good working order. It seems more likely they were kept in barely working order. For a conscientious captain, that's usually due to lack of funds.

But what I find curious is while practically the entire world is saying the chosen path of the ship was suicidal, not one of the crew thus far has criticized Walbridge for taking that path.

In the ABC interview, John Svendsen said, "I give my life to Robin, to the ingenuity, to his leadership, that I'm here today." When I heard that I couldn't believe my ears. I understand respecting the dead but saying such a thing is so contrary to the fact that if Walbridge hadn't made the decision he had Svendsen wouldn't have been donning an immersion suit. He wouldn't have been thrown into 30' seas in gale force winds. He wouldn't have had to rely on "the ingenuity" of his captain in putting strobes on the immersion suits that called attention to the CG. And he wouldn't have been pulled out of the ocean by a helicopter during a hurricane. So to say, "I give my life to Robin" seems very strange.

Every crew member so far has been quiet about criticizing the captain. Walbridge did something no one in their right mind would have done (and no one else did), he sailed into the direction of a monstrous hurricane, already predicted to be the mother of all storms for the northeast coast. Maybe they are under order not to speak factually about the captain but to say, "I give my life to Robin"
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Sometimes I think, that you did not learn anything with this thread and did not really changed opinion regarding the first statements you have made here.
Paulo,

Beleive it or not, I dont think I can learn anything from you in regards to the Bounty nor did anyone apoint you the authority or teacher here. While you are somewhat of a good reasource on boats you have shown to be less than knowledgeable about many other subjects I have seen you post about. You continue to post these giant posts of other statements or authors and consider them fact. They are not fact sir.

Also even if you were somewhat of an authority on something its very difficult to get past your ridiculing others oppiniopns by calling them stupid and many other words. In your last post alone is an example.

See the problem here is you cand play in the sandbox and accept others have opinions without ridicule. You say you want people to learn but no one learns from someone who puts down others. I also recognize that I have not been perfect in this to others and will work on that. The first part of realiziing there is a problem is to recognoize that yourself, which you fail to do.

Quote:
It is obviously a very stupid and wrong thing to say
Quote:
Operator error on the pumps???? if someone on that boat deserves credit is Barksdale, the one responsible by engines and pumps working.
And you know this how, by his own statement. Did it ever occur to you it was self serving? He admitted turning one off.

Quote:
It seems that you don't read what is posted on this thread. Barksdale had stated that the pumps were clogged and that they, including the Captain were despairingly trying to unclog the pumps.
And he said he never saw the Captain.

Quote:
And I am saying that because unlike what you are saying this was not an isolated incident, it was just the one where he run out of luck. He was taking unreasonable risks with that boat and the crew for a long time
Prove it
What you are saying here is really based on some of the other statements made in the past and your humble opinion that you neleive that he was reckless in the past.

See Paulo there is a fact that is irreuftable. NO ONE who has sailed with him has said this about him. NO ONE who has sailed with him said he was reckless in the past. NO ONE who knew him personally even remotely says what you preach about him.

Heres a fact. You are sitting in front of your computer in Portugal making statements you call fact which really are nothing than YOUR OPINION. The fact is you have no first hand knwledge. The fact is you generalize and post incomplete data, The fact is you ridicule those who do not deleive what you say. The fact is the people who really knew this man DO NOT say anything which even remotely supports you theory about this man. You misuse the English language constantly calling your opinions facts.

Here is the Oxford Dictionarys definituion of the word fact

Quote:
noun

a thing that is known or proved to be true: the most commonly known fact about hedgehogs is that they have fleas [mass noun]: a body of fact

(facts) information used as evidence or as part of a report or news article: even the most inventive journalism peters out without facts, and in this case there were no facts

(the fact that) used to refer to a particular situation under discussion: despite the fact that I’m so tired, sleep is elusive

[mass noun] chiefly Law the truth about events as opposed to interpretation: there was a question of fact as to whether they had received the letter
Paulo, you know what doesnt make sense here, is that despite be challenged by myself and others on your use of things you consider FACTS and your definition of that you dont even learn from that you overstep and dont know the difference between your opinion and facts. You keep ramming thes down mine and others throats and I guess I am stupid enough to have taken the bait and keep responding to your mistaken statements of fact.

What is funny here is that we all are expected to have opinions here as this is an internet blog site. You seem to the one fixated that your opinions are facts though. I dont feel my opinions are facts just one humble sailors opinion from my perch here in the US.

Quote:
As it was stated by him, the organization, the crew and his wife, the ship had been sailed by him previously several times in hurricanes or near hurricanes. Considering that XVII century designed wooden ship that is a reckless behavior that only a reckless captain would indulge.
the fact in this is that he said he sailed in hurricanes previous.....your interrpretation is that this was reckless behavior.
Why was he never brough up on charges if this was reckless behavior?

I have learned some things on this post from others Paulo. I learn a lot on this forum called Sailnet. I have stated many times that the Captain is responsible for this tradgedy. Icannot wrap my head around why he would sail into a hurricane or anywhwre near one. I am not trying to figure out why, because I dont understand it from my refernce point and experience and he is not here anymore to ask him. Therefore I have to live with that. He did it. I will never know why and that anyone who attributes a reason why is just hypothesizing as no one can prove it factual. Its bad enough he did this and cost lives. I dont need to build some ever growing hypothetical story around it.
Along with him, I await ( in years I am sure) the results of the inquirey for some of the factors which actuyallu phsically caused the sinking which maybe we can learn from and prevent to amke things safer in the future ( IE construction, certifications, build quality, ballast, pumps, engines, crew etc.). That is where the learning will take place..not acusing the dead captain of further eckless behavior and denigrating his person.

I dont think we can find a way to test or predict when people make aggregious decuisions ahead of time, so this will happen again. Every day in fact. The facts from the investigation which may turn up physical problems we can remedy will be the only learning experience which we can help makes things safer from.

Since it appears that we will not ever agree on things concerning this topic, I suggest in fairness to others we stop burdening them with the obvious disagreement between us and hold of posting responses to each other in this thread. It serves no purpose. I will not answer your posts in this thread anymore, but will continue to correspond with others. Lets just call it an agreement to disagree. Can you do that.....or do you still need the last word here.

dave
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Last edited by chef2sail; 12-10-2012 at 01:29 PM.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Julie I also note the tone and content of what the crew does and does not say. Its a bit strange. Maybe its loyalty, maybe naivete, maybe something else. Maybe cluelesssness. I don't know. They seem to give the company line too.

Or maybe........like most of us who really met and knew him keep saying

They truly just beleive what they are saying. I know its not as much fun and you cant write lots of stories about that, but at least give credence to it. Why is it so hard to beleive what EVERYONE is saying. It would be harder to keep a conspiracy together/
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post

Quote:
Quote:
It seems that you don't read what is posted on this thread. Barksdale had stated that the pumps were clogged and that they, including the Captain were despairingly trying to unclog the pumps.
And he said he never saw the Captain.
Minor clarification here... Barksdale's comment about "never seeing the captain" was in reference to only what he saw after being called up on deck for the final time, and being told by other crewmembers it was time to abandon ship...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
the fact in this is that he said he sailed in hurricanes previous.....your interrpretation is that this was reckless behavior.
Why was he never brough up on charges if this was reckless behavior?
Again, the only "fact" here, is that it has been claimed the BOUNTY had sailed "in", or "though", at least 2 prior hurricanes (His wife has claimed the number was "too many to remember", but, hey - why quibble over numbers?) As I've stated about 300 posts ago (grin), I will be VERY surprised if we EVER learn the names, dates, or relative positions of those encounters... His claim that he experienced 70' seas from a storm a few hundred miles distant extablishes no "fact", other than the one that he was apparently talking out of his butt in making such a ridiculous claim...
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Again, the only "fact" here, is that it has been claimed the BOUNTY had sailed "in", or "though", at least 2 prior hurricanes (His wife has claimed the number was "too many to remember", but, hey - why quibble over numbers?) As I've stated about 300 posts ago (grin), I will be VERY surprised if we EVER learn the names, dates, or relative positions of those encounters... His claim that he experienced 70' seas from a storm a few hundred miles distant extablishes no "fact", other than the one that he was apparently talking out of his butt in making such a ridiculous claim..JonEisberg.
I totally agree thats why to build hypopthesis and theories on this unsubstantiated hyperbole or to continue using these statements in the explaination just leads to no credence in those theories.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post

Quote PCP:
Sometimes I think, that you did not learn anything with this thread and did not really changed opinion regarding the first statements you have made here.


Beleive it or not, I dont think I can learn anything from you in regards to the Bounty nor did anyone apoint you the authority or teacher here. While you are somewhat of a good reasource on boats you have shown to be less than knowledgeable about many other subjects I have seen you post about. You continue to post these giant posts of other statements or authors and consider them fact. They are not fact sir.

Also even if you were somewhat of an authority on something its very difficult to get past your ridiculing others oppiniopns by calling them stupid and many other words. In your last post alone is an example.
jesus Dave, I am not talking about learning with me, I am talking about learning with all contribution made on this thread that lead to a consensual opinion. I certainly have learned with this thread and that's why I am still around.

I didn't call stupid to anybody: I have said the captain made a stupid statement not that he was stupid. Maybe you not but most along our lives had said stupid things, things that only later and because we are not stupid we found that they would only qualify as that. That don't makes us stupids.

A professional Captain saying that a XVIII century design wooden boat would be safer sailing a Hurricane than being in port, specially considering the safety of the crew, that should be the most important to any captain, is a pretty stupid thing to say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post

Quote PCP:
Operator error on the pumps???? if someone on that boat deserves credit is Barksdale, the one responsible by engines and pumps working.


And you know this how, by his own statement. Did it ever occur to you it was self serving? He admitted turning one off.
He said that he had turned it out for maintenance. Why the hell do you think he have stropped a generator in the middle of a storm to make maintenance except it the thing needed it urgently otherwise it would blow apart?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post

QuotePCP:
It seems that you don't read what is posted on this thread. Barksdale had stated that the pumps were clogged and that they, including the Captain were despairingly trying to unclog the pumps.


And he said he never saw the Captain.
Dave, go back to the article and read it better. He says he did not saw the Captain when the boat was sinking and we went up to the deck and says:

Quote:
Barksdale was being overwhelmed in the engine room and other crew members, including Walbridge and Svendsen, rushed to spell him, trying to keep the pumps free of clogging debris.

FOCUS: HMS Bounty's burial at sea - Fall River, MA - The Herald News

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post

Quote:PCP
And I am saying that because unlike what you are saying this was not an isolated incident, it was just the one where he run out of luck. He was taking unreasonable risks with that boat and the crew for a long time

Prove it

What you are saying here is really based on some of the other statements made in the past and your humble opinion that you neleive that he was reckless in the past.
Dave it seems that you have to re read the thread: He said that he had sailed hurricanes, his wive had said he had sailed on hurricanes the crew said that he had sailed hurricanes, the bounty organization said that the Bounty had sailed hurricanes.

It seems that none of them seemed to see anything wrong in sailing hurricanes or sail near them with a wooden XVII century designed boat, the captain even had that strange idea that that the Bounty had no limits and accordingly they all consider that the Captain was not reckless but a great sailor.

However in In my opinion, that is sustained by much more knowledgeable opinions, sailing a ship like a Bounty in a hurricane or near it is an irresponsible act and a very unsafe thing to do. The Captain had done it not one time, but several times and that was reported by several credible sources. This makes this incident not an isolated one but just the one where the Captain run out of luck. It also shows a repeated reckless behavior of the Captain in what regards ship and crew safety. This make him a reckless captain.

Why do you think poor Claudene stated that "Bounty loved hurricanes" before being in one with the ship?

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 12-10-2012 at 02:42 PM.
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