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  #1221  
Old 12-10-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Seems this sailor thought the Bounty did the right thing, interesting arcticle, a view point we have not seen from an experienced sailor:

HMS Bounty Falls Victim to Hurricane Sandy | PRI's The World

From above:

The US Coast Guard is searching for two missing crew members from the tall ship, HMS Bounty.

The ship ran into trouble Monday as as the crew tried to escape Hurricane Sandy’s fury — off North Carolina’s Cape Hatteras.

Fourteen other crew members were rescued early this morning.

The ship itself is reported to have sunk.

The HMS Bounty was built for MGM studios in 1960 for the classic movie, “Mutiny on the Bounty”, starring Marlon Brando.

It was built according to the plans of the original 18th century ship.

The Bounty also appeared in one version of Treasure Island, and “Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man’s Chest.”

For the last 20 years or so it’s served as an educational vessel.

Sailors say heading out to sea in a storm is quite normal.

“Ships are meant to sail,” says one former sailor, Kelsey Freeman. “And they generally are going to float a lot better when they’re out to sea than if they’re tied to a dock.”
Freeman spent seven years working on tall ships.

In a storm like this, says Freeman, where the waters rise because of a storm surge, you have to leave extra slack on the ropes. As a result the ship will “move around a lot and probably dash itself to bits on the rocks.”

Looking at the map, says Freeman, it seems the Bounty just didn’t have enough room to skirt the storm.

But the Bounty encountered a more critical problem according to the ship’s official Facebook page. It lost power.

“If your only pumps are electrically based and you lose your electricity,” says Freeman, “then it becomes an issue of when you will sink, not if.”

As of 1615 EDT, the US Coast Guard was continuing the search for the two missing seamen.

Read the TranscriptThe text below is a phonetic transcript of a radio story broadcast by PRI’s THE WORLD. It has been created on deadline by a contractor for PRI. The transcript is included here to facilitate internet searches for audio content. Please report any transcribing errors to theworld@pri.org. This transcript may not be in its final form, and it may be updated. Please be aware that the authoritative record of material distributed by PRI’s THE WORLD is the program audio.

Lisa Mullins: The US Coastguard is searching for two missing crew members from the tall ship HMS Bounty . The ship ran into trouble as the crew tried to escape Hurricane Sandy’s fury off North Carolina’s Cape Hatters. Fourteen crew members were rescued early this morning. The ship itself is reported to have sunk. The HMS Bounty was built for MGM studios in 1960 for the classic Film “Mutiny on the Bounty”¯ starring Marlin Brando. The Bounty also appeared in one version of Treasure Island and in Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man’s Chest. For the last 20 years or so, it has served as an educational vessel. Kelsey Freeman is an experienced sailor. She spent about a third of her life crewing tall ships. Kelsey, we don’t know why in particular headed out to sea as Hurricane Sandy approached, but why generally is this a common practice, that when a storm comes near, ships head out into the ocean?

Kelsey Freeman: Well, Lisa, ships are meant to sail, and they are generally going to float a lot better if they’re out to sea than if they’re tied to a dock. Especially in a storm like this, where you have a very, very high storm surge, because it’s going to rise-the water’s going to rise. You have to have extra slack in the lines. In order to have that much slack, the ship will move around a lot. It will probably dash itself to bits against the docks that it is tied to.

Mullins: It seems counter-intuitive that a ship would go out right in the path of a hurricane. You’re saying that, even that, is safer than being tied up?

Freeman: Ideally, you don’t want to head directly to the hurricane. It’s my understanding, since I was looking at maps of where the Bounty had gone, they had pins showing it’s path; it looked like they were heading out to sea and generally attempting to stay out of the path of the hurricane. And it looks like the storm is so big that there wasn’t really anywhere that they could go that would be safe. They couldn’t skirt it enough.

Mullins: You yourself were what’s called a topmen when you served on tall ships.

Freeman: Yes.

Mullins: You were one of the high climbers who worked on the highest of the sails.

Freeman: Yes.

Mullins: We’ve all seen what kind of images of this. I don’t know what it’s like-what the view is like up there. Maybe you can tell us and also what the experience is like when you’re furling sails in gale-force winds.

Freeman: Ya, it can be quite scary because ships are basically reverse pendulums. So if you’re all the way at the top, the ship I sail on was quite large, the royal yards where I worked were a hundred feet up. So you’re swaying quite a bit. Though the ideal situation is – let’s say you’re on a ship like the Bounty that has an engine which you do not want to use your sails during a storm because they do a wonderful job of catching the wind, and can take you in directions you don’t want to go or they can flat-out rip off. So ideally, you want to send people into the rigging before a storm to actually furl up the sails and switch to using an engine. And I understand that, that was part of the problem with the Bounty is that they were using their engines and they lost electrical; And when you lose your propulsion, you can’t steer.
Mullins: The on-shore staff reported on Facebook is received a distress call from the Bounty at about 6:30 last night saying that the ship had lost power and the pumps were not able to keep up with the dewatering.

Freeman: Yes.

Mullins: So basically they were trying to bail out but didn’t have the electrical pumps at their service.

Freeman: And that’s the thing that historically, ships had hand-pumps, which I think in this situation, even then they would have had difficulty, but if your only pumps are electrically based, and your electricity becomes an issue of when you will sink not if you will sink. I was reading on there – on the Bounty’s Facebook page – they said that when they sent on the distress call, they were taking on two feet of water and hour, and they decided to abandon ship when they had reached 10 feet. I’ve seen the Bounty in person. Taking on ten feet of water means the ship was almost
awash which means it was almost sunken when they were leaving the ship.

Mullins: Have you had that kind of experience where the ship is tilted enough that you’re almost at a 90 degree angle if you are way, way up there?

Freeman: Yes. I was sailing on Lake Heron, and we actually – we were up by the dock, and we actually left to dock to head out into a squall that was coming in. For the same reasons, you don’t want to be close to anything the ship can be dashed against. So we sailed out into it, and we were actually moving very, very quickly, because we had to sails up. So I had to go up and help furl up the sails, and I remember and I even have a photo of this -that the ship was beyond a 45 degree angle on its side heeled over because there was so much wind on the sail. And I was on the leeward side, and I remember that it wasn’t that I could literally reach out and touch the water, but at one point it was heeled over so much that I felt like I was going to fall off into the water because it was that close and it was heeled over that much.

Mullins: How come you didn’t fall in?

Freeman: Because I was tied to the yard. You wear protective harnesses that little clips so when you’re climbing up there – when you’re climbing, you’re not attached to anything, but once you get into place, you’re hooked in to a protective line so that even if you do fall off, you’ll be just kind of hanging there.

Mullins: All right, thank you so much. Kelsey Freeman, teacher, freelance photographer, based in Alexandria, Virginia served seven years working on tall ships. Very nice to have you on the program.

Freeman: Thank you
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  #1222  
Old 12-10-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

In a court of law, hearsay is inadmissible. Evidence by eyewitnesses is usually given more weight over everything else. Expert testimony is always given more weight over other testimony. Interpretation is given weight based on who is doing the interpretation. It's the same for opinions.

But above all else is fact, not assumptions. At this point we don't have enough facts to be able to say why the captain set sail into the direction of a hurricane. We don't even know if the crew was aware of the potential of the hurricane. We only have supposition. It's possible the crew can provide facts but they can never say what the captain was thinking unless he told them directly. As of this writing, I know of no crew member who has made any statement regarding the captain's state of mind.

A serious human flaw is the almost inherent quality to be unable to repeat verbatim, to another person, what someone has just told them. That's why hearsay is inadmissible in court. For this discussion, we need quotes, and that means from the people on the dock who talked to captain and crew prior to departure and from the crew directly. What we THINK is only that: what we think.

The only people who can shed any further light on this subject are the crew and people who spoke with Walbridge at or around the time he was in New London or during the time he was at sea. I have not heard of there being anyone other then the crew who communicated with Walbridge once they cast off.

So that really leaves the crew and thus far they have not said one disparaging word about Robin Walbridge, that I know of. If and when there comes a time that they do, we will know who is right here and who isn't, provided what they have to say relates to this discussion. Until then we can't know. All we have are our opinions. It's better for all when we remember that.
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  #1223  
Old 12-10-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal Paradise View Post
You going to PROVE your relationship and fill us in on this special knowledge of Walbridge?

Post some pictures of the two of you sailing together and maybe some excerpts from your many e-mails where you learned what type of captain he really was. How else can we know what you are talking about? Something that shows how his charecter was always to put his crew first even if it meant he had to sacrifice his own ego or goals. How about a copy of his safety manual with his persoanl handwritten notes?

Because until you do, and fully apprise us what specific knowledge you have of him that contradicts what everyone else is writing - it means absolutely nothing. This is the internet after all. I mean we all know people. I know Morgan Fairchild. In fact I'm married to her.


As for what they believe, thats their business - I am noting a real lack of details, a real lack of coherence and continuity in all the various accounts. Some of that I can attribute to beleif or whatever, some of that i can attribute to sloppy journalism, but even accounting for that - I still hear in their statements a vague evasive disingenuous tone. This is my opinion. Nothing more.


Also Dave,buddy, your hostility is showing again.
Is true that Dave is many times hostile without a reason to be, or at least I see it that way, but I don't like your post.

Why should you or anybody doubt that Dave knew Bounty's Captain?

Unless you know for sure that it is not true what leads you to doubt his word on that?

That fact that he knew it or not as not any relevance to what we are discussing except that makes more comprehensible his attitude on this discussion. After all all the crew and Bounty people regarded him as a great Captain and a great guy. They also thought it was OK to sail hurricanes with the Bounty and used to say that the Bounty loved hurricanes.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 12-10-2012 at 02:55 PM.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
Seems this sailor thought the Bounty did the right thing, interesting arcticle, a view point we have not seen from an experienced sailor:

HMS Bounty Falls Victim to Hurricane Sandy | PRI's The World
One really has to question how "experienced" that guy is, if indeed he thinks that the only two options available to Walbridge were to remain either tied to the dock in New London, or to put to sea, and sail directly into the path of the storm...

Quote:

...it looked like they were heading out to sea and generally attempting to stay out of the path of the hurricane. And it looks like the storm is so big that there wasn’t really anywhere that they could go that would be safe. They couldn’t skirt it enough.
Either he lacks access to charts, or suffers an extreme poverty of imagination... (grin)

Last edited by JonEisberg; 12-10-2012 at 02:39 PM.
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  #1225  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
One really has to question how "experienced" that guy is, if indeed he thinks that the only two options available to Walbridge were to remain either tied to the dock in New London, or to put to sea, and sail directly into the path of the storm...
I agree, but it does give us a perspective into the mindset of some of these square rigger sailors, and maybe some of the crew (and maybe Captain) aboard the movie ship "Bounty".

I also thought it was interesting that the apparent high wind tactic aboard some tall ships is to furl the sails and start the engines.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
..
But the Bounty encountered a more critical problem according to the ship’s official Facebook page. It lost power.

“If your only pumps are electrically based and you lose your electricity,” says Freeman, “then it becomes an issue of when you will sink, not if.”[/B]
...
Just a small additional information regarding the Bounty's pumps. They add actually two systems, one connected to the engines (an hydraulic one) and not dependent on the generators and other one electrical. It is not clear what was the main and the back up system but we know that the engines were not in working condition (even if we don't know why) so that system was the first to be put out of service.

Regards

Paulo
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
I agree, but it does give us a perspective into the mindset of some of these square rigger sailors, and maybe some of the crew (and maybe Captain) aboard the movie ship "Bounty".

I also thought it was interesting that the apparent high wind tactic aboard some tall ships is to furl the sails and start the engines.
He states that he had been in a somewhat similar situation:

Freeman: Yes. I was sailing on Lake Heron, and we actually – we were up by the dock, and we actually left to dock to head out into a squall that was coming in. For the same reasons, you don’t want to be close to anything the ship can be dashed against. So we sailed out into it, and we were actually moving very, very quickly, because we had to sails up. So I had to go up and help furl up the sails, and I remember and I even have a photo of this -that the ship was beyond a 45 degree angle on its side heeled over because there was so much wind on the sail. And I was on the leeward side, and I remember that it wasn’t that I could literally reach out and touch the water, but at one point it was heeled over so much that I felt like I was going to fall off into the water because it was that close and it was heeled over that much.


But this is just a squall, not an hurricane and almost took the ship down (these are not like our sailboats, a 45ŗ angle is a very dangerous angle of heel for one of these boats).

I guess we can expect to hear all opinions but this is just a sailor with experience in tall ships. We have heard the opinions of several tall ship captains that said that the Bounty should have not sailed out and none from a tall ship Captain saying otherwise.

Casey regarding storm tactics and sails on a tall ship I don't know, I guess it depends on the intensity of the wind. But the boat had no engines anymore and we have heard a crew man stating that the boat become uncontrollable after the storm sail that they were using to control the boat was blown away.

Regards

Paulo
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
You going to PROVE your relationship and fill us in on this special knowledge of Walbridge?
You serious

Even Paulo who I dont agree with much in this thread rebuked you.

Quote:
Is true that Dave is many times hostile without a reason to be, or at least I see it that way, but I don't like your post.Why should you or anybody doubt that Dave knew Bounty's Captain?- PCP
Did you ask that of wingnwing when she said she met the captain? I have to pass YOUR litmas test? You...who has absolutley no credibility. Why would I say it if it was not true? Post my e mails between us....silly boy you have lost it, post pictures...silly boy you have lost it more. Some on here have actually met me in person and spent time with me. First hand knowledge of a person again.

I knew the Captain. I said I had met him on more than one occasion. I never said anything about a special relationship, those are your words of hyperbole. Suffice it to say my statements about the Captain are reflected by others who knew him and have been interviewed. You cant seem to digest that can you. The have NO NEGATIVES You cant refute it either. Again note this is FIRST HAND opinions of those who have met or served under him.

Sal,
So again what we have here in your case specifially is you...( I hate to go back to this but I guess I must) sitting in front of your computer...no first hand knowledge, no facts other than what you read, pleanty of interpretation and conspiracy theories dreamed up in your own mind creating all sorts of opinions in your "dark ngative" room.

On the other side, you have eye witnesses, people who knew Walbridge for years, people who entrusted their lives with Walbridge, people who were aquantiances ( me) people who wre professionally involced with him....and they all say the same thing....which when comapred with what you say about Walbridge....makes your opinions about Walbridge look like a load of crap. Read JulieMors post it puts it in maybe better perspective than I can.

Now who has the credibility here...you behind you computer with little sailing knowledge or the people who have sailing knowledge wirtht him directly and knew him first hand....duh

I think it is your hostility that has begun to show through. Actually your posts in respoinse to mine since the smallboatlover thread have a distinct pattern to them/
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
He states that he had been in a somewhat similar situation:

Freeman: Yes. I was sailing on Lake Heron, and we actually – we were up by the dock, and we actually left to dock to head out into a squall that was coming in. For the same reasons, you don’t want to be close to anything the ship can be dashed against. So we sailed out into it, and we were actually moving very, very quickly, because we had to sails up. So I had to go up and help furl up the sails, and I remember and I even have a photo of this -that the ship was beyond a 45 degree angle on its side heeled over because there was so much wind on the sail. And I was on the leeward side, and I remember that it wasn’t that I could literally reach out and touch the water, but at one point it was heeled over so much that I felt like I was going to fall off into the water because it was that close and it was heeled over that much.


But this is just a squall, not an hurricane and almost took the ship down (these are not like our sailboats, a 45ŗ angle is a very dangerous angle of heel for one of these boats).

I guess we can expect to hear all opinions but this is just a sailor with experience in tall ships. We have heard the opinions of several tall ship captains that said that the Bounty should have not sailed out and none from a tall ship Captain saying otherwise.

Casey regarding storm tactics and sails on a tall ship I don't know, I guess it depends on the intensity of the wind. But the boat had no engines anymore and we have heard a crew man stating that the boat become uncontrollable after the storm sail that they were using to control the boat was blown away.

Regards

Paulo
I agree, I posted it because it gives another perspective (could be right or wrong).

The final Coast Guard report will be interesting. Curious if the Coast Guard report will address the following: storm tactics of the ship (engines vs sails), experience of crew and captain, condition of the ship (rig, hull engines, pumps, electrical, communications), decision steps made when deciding to set sail and try to out manuver the huricane.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
One really has to question how "experienced" that guy is...
C'mon Jon! You know! In this country experienced means having done something for a long time. How well that person does it does not take away from he or she being experienced.
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