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  #1261  
Old 12-11-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Thank you for comming back and replying and giving us a further glimpse into what you saw.

.

I am actually quite suprised you have never heard of Witchcraft before. She is a staple of the classB tall ships in the Baltimore area and is berthed in my marina 2 slips from me. She participates yearly in all of festivals in the area and many times over the years and now accompanied both the Pride of Baltimore and the Pride of Baltimore II in events on the Chesapeake. I beleive you mention you sailed on Both. The Captain of the Witchcraft also served on both Prides. He knows the Captain of the pride II and he knew Walbridge even. We spoke about this a week ago and I spoke with him today and showed him your post. Thats why I though you may have certainly run accross him as the Tall ship community here in the Chesapeake is a small one and they do a lot of travelking toigether to many of the festivals on the Chesapeake together.. You are correct that it is now a personal yacht and does not take passangers .

From your post it seems as though one of the things you are saying here is that this underfunded vessel, staffed by mostly green sailors was kind of a train wreck waiting to happen. Even the most basic seaman amongst us know about slacking lines through tidal changes and the effect on lines of a tidal change. In one way it sounds as if those who were on the Bounty were trying to live the dream of the Tall Ship era without the proper vessel, training and funding.

It almost sounds from what you say that them even taking this vessel out of the harbor is something they were not really qualified for by your description of dock lines and the thru hulls. No wonder you had no confidence in allowing your friends to board her in any way other than the dock. I guess she should have just stayed a dockside attraction some
where and not moved. Wow and to think this veessel went accross the Atlantic, San Diego, Peurto Rico with all this potential critical stuff just waiting to be exposed and sink her.

You and your associates on the well funded tall ships must have joked and talked about the Bounty in amazement and worried all the time that she would self destruct due to her green crew inability to handle the most basic of operations, or the lack of managerment of the vessels maintainence. You probably are not suprised that she sunk and assumed some tragedy would eventually befall her sooner or later...Sandy or not. The other TSC boats propbablky though it was grossly unfair all the regulations/ certifcations you had to undergo, while the Bounty went many places and didnt have to go through the same paces. They essentially got a free ride while you were under a microscope/

I bet she was a true embarrassment to the rest of the "real" tall ships in terms of professionalism as she really wasnt of the same ilk, and caliber and discipline or esprit de cor that you had on the "real" tall ships. She was truly the ugly ducking who called her self a tall ship but in your and others minds was really a wannabe tall ship and was just acting the part. It propably miffed many that the Bounty received so much attention and admiration from people because in your mind and the other TSC community she was really not of the same class as your ships. In your minds she was truly just a movie prop, not built to be a working tall ship like the Pride of Baltimore and Pride 2, which you sailed on or many of the other tall ships.

But as you have said the ship because it is reallly a large personal yacht in terms of classifcation does not have to pass any real CG or stringent inspections. Had this just been any other yacht which had sank, it propably would not have had the noteriety.

People do stupid things on ships and boats far worse with more loss of life than two people and dont get nearly the noteriety and play in the press as the Bounty has. Even her in the shark tank of sailnet, the Bounty has had so many permutations as to cause and hypothesis that havent been afforded other ships or vessels which have sunk. It may beg back to a questuion to which JulieMor asked in the beginnning, why does this Bounty evoke so much response?

No wonder you and some in the TSC now want to distance your self from them. I guess you couldnt when they were alive as you were collegues and didnt want to be tagged with being jealous of the publicity and noteriety this wannabe tall ship received. Also you want people to know that you have more stringent qualifications as far as crew and condition of your ships. You are the serious tall ships after all and the Bounty was just playing at it.

Maybe you could go back to some of your frriends and have them post similarly as you or at least come forward some way annonomously to weigh in on this Bounty in this or other forums. Now that you have made it apparent that she really was the outcast, the black sheep of the tall ship community, there shouldnt be any type of black listing or retributions from telling the truth as you indicate most in the TSC beleive as you did.. By doing this maybe you would all be doing this to prevent a similar situation from occuring again and can save lives.

It seems as though this poster indicates it was inevitable that something would happen to the Bounty every time she left the dock. Sailing off into a hurricane insured that it happened that day.

Again thank you for posting. You as a first hand account and professional of this TSC certainly are a breath of fresh air in this thread where lots of conjecture and hypothesis without first hand knowledge have been swirling. Its great to receive a post firsthand,
Your posts so far having given me another way of looking at this terrible tragedy.

Feel free to continue to add where you think you can without putting yourself in a compromising position.

.
Chef,

The above are your words. sparklepl3nty said exactly what is posted under sparkle3nty. Why is it necessary to play the game of restating/overstating what the poster has said. So if the poster answers more questions, amateur "Columbos" will not be satisfied, and will ask more until they can identify the person. And then someone who feels strongly about the Bounty will likely go to the tall ship community and get the poster blackballed. Maybe the poster has already given too much information.

Along that line, why would you show the post to the captain of Witchcraft? And even asking about the Witchcraft seems like a trick question, but I could be wrong.
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  #1262  
Old 12-11-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail
I am actually quite suprised you have never heard of Witchcraft before.
Can't say that I have. It has been two years since I lived in MD, and I've bounced between coasts in the previous years. Also, I never sailed on the original Pride (I was born after she went down) and sailed as volunteer on Pride II whenever I could.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail
From your post it seems as though one of the things you are saying here is that this underfunded vessel, staffed by mostly green sailors was kind of a train wreck waiting to happen..

It almost sounds from what you say that them even taking this vessel out of the harbor is something they were not really qualified for by your description of dock lines and the thru hulls. No wonder you had no confidence in allowing your friends to board her in any way other than the dock. I guess she should have just stayed a dockside attraction some
where and not moved...

You and your associates on the well funded tall ships must have joked and talked about the Bounty in amazement and worried all the time that she would self destruct due to her green crew inability to handle the most basic of operations, or the lack of managerment of the vessels maintainence. You probably are not suprised that she sunk and assumed some tragedy would eventually befall her sooner or later...Sandy or not. The other TSC boats propbablky though it was grossly unfair all the regulations/ certifcations you had to undergo, while the Bounty went many places and didnt have to go through the same paces. They essentially got a free ride while you were under a microscope/

I bet she was a true embarrassment..
Whoa, I sense a lot of animosity here, and I'm not sure why. There was certainly no case of "well-funded" vs. "underfunded," as most TallShips are not well-funded. In the last four years, a handful of TallShips have gone out of business (many are non-profits, by the way), or lost their funding (Pride II is not funded by the city or state anymore, and is now maintained by donors and a non-profit). I have only worked on one vessel where money was seemingly "unlimited;" usually we even re-use our chip brushes to save money.

So no, we didn't see her as an embarrassment, or ask why we had to jump through hoops for our COI and regs, or why she got attention (sometimes, but not always true).

I and the TSC would NEVER want a boat to sink, fall into disarray, or go out of business, no matter the ship. I as well as many of the TSC heard the news and were stunned and mourned the loss of one of our own, as well as Captain Walbridge and Claudene Christian. For several days my close sailing friends texted and called each other with the news and cried. There was no sigh of relief that she went down, if that's what you are inferring.

As for Bounty getting "a free ride while [we] were under a microscope," I don't feel that that was the case at all. Sure, regs and inspections can be a pain (having to re-set and drop two tons of sail three times, then a MOB drill is exhausting!) but I know we as crews were proud of being well-trained and proud of our tidy bilges. Not to mention, it also was a standard to how safe our ship was. We all knew that the more we trained, the less stressed we'd be if a situation were to occur.

This isn't to say she didn't undergo any inspections at all as she still had inspection as a dockside attraction. It was just different regs.
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  #1263  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brewgyver View Post
I agree, and that is why I said "no engineer worth the name..." It would have been more accurate to say "no Engineer worth the title." If the Bounty actually had an experienced Engineer aboard, it is quite possible that we wouldn't be talking about it for 1200 plus posts.
Or, as was mentioned in a GCaptain forum after they had looked at photos of the engine room, any professional mariner engineer would have run away fast from that boat after looking at the installations

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 12-11-2012 at 06:49 PM.
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  #1264  
Old 12-11-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post
I would never slag him (Barksdale), but I do the authorities who allowed it, and the authorities who desired it... The captain and the owners. Again the captain comes directly not play. A fool who didnt want a marine diesel mechanic.
"Want" may have had nothing to do with it. Walbridge may have been a man who loved what he was doing and simply didn't have the money to keep Bounty well maintained and couldn't leave the ship he loved no matter what shape she was in.

I think every boat owner here and elsewhere would keep their vessel in pristine condition, both mechanically and aesthetically if money was no object. And those who love their boat but don't have that kind of money do the best they can with what they have.

If the crew was some of the least experienced and lowest paid, one would think the primary reason was available funds. At the captain's level, it may have meant the owners gave him only enough to keep the ship afloat. (I have a hard time believing Walbridge was pocketing available funds for his piggy bank.) At the owner's level it may have meant an inability to maintain and crew the vessel properly due to lack of funds or the owners had the money but refused to put any more than they did to keep her afloat. As it has been suggested that the crew was putty in the captain's hands, it could easily have been true that the captain was putty in the owner's hands.

But give me a sailboat that makes my heart pound and enough money to do what I want with it and it will be the best maintained and best looking sailboat wherever she goes. I have a feeling Robin Walbridge would have done the same with Bounty, if he had the money available to him.

That said, it doesn't release him from allegations of being the primary reason why Bounty set sail when a major storm was approaching.

Last edited by JulieMor; 12-11-2012 at 06:44 PM.
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  #1265  
Old 12-11-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JulieMor View Post
"Want" may have had nothing to do with it. Walbridge may have been a man who loved what he was doing and simply didn't have the money to keep Bounty well maintained and couldn't leave the ship he loved no matter what shape she was in.
Then he should have had the fortitude (guts) to say: " I live sailing in hurricanes, but I don't have an engineer qualified to work on the miscreants of engines that I have so therefore I will stay in port."

But he didnt and that's complacent with the negligence he has shown elsewhere. IMHO.


But the the last post of mine had a iPad changed word... "becomes directly not play" should have read, "becomes directly into play"
But you realized the typo


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  #1266  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail
But as you have said the ship because it is reallly a large personal yacht in terms of classifcation does not have to pass any real CG or stringent inspections. Had this just been any other yacht which had sank, it propably would not have had the noteriety... It may beg back to a questuion to which JulieMor asked in the beginnning, why does this Bounty evoke so much response?

No wonder you and some in the TSC now want to distance your self from them. I guess you couldnt when they were alive as you were collegues and didnt want to be tagged with being jealous of the publicity and noteriety this wannabe tall ship received. Also you want people to know that you have more stringent qualifications as far as crew and condition of your ships. You are the serious tall ships after all and the Bounty was just playing at it.
I'm finding this all pretty offensive, but I will address the notoriety question.

1. She's a famous boat, due to being a replica and traditionally designed (tens of thousands of visitors would see her, then walk away thinking she was a pirate ship simply because of appearance), as well as being in the Mutiny movie, Pirates of the Caribbean, and other movies. Naturally, much of the public is going to recognize a name in the media like Bounty and get carried away.

2. I was mate a couple years ago on a "booze cruise" schooner in Florida. Even though we charged the same, our boat was lovely and we provided an experience that was like no other in that area, there was a motorized "pirate boat" (Google search "pirate cruises") that was packed to the gills every day when we went out with a few. It just is the way it is. People are crazy over ships that look like "pirate ships."

3. Other ships have gone down, or lost crew over the last decade. In part because of social media, this story has become even bigger.

4. In all reality, no matter what ship I was crew on, there was notoriety. People often would be crowding the docks when we arrived, and eager to see us sail or explore the boat. We certainly never worried about being ignored!

All in all, please keep your allegations to yourself. We are still mourning the loss to our community.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

I am a bit confused here. The Witchcraft that chief is talking about is this one?



This is not a Ship, much less a Tall ship. This is a Classic yacht and not even a big one with 60ft. A nice one I would say.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Along that line, why would you show the post to the captain of Witchcraft? And even asking about the Witchcraft seems like a trick question, but I could be wrong.
Simple answer, I thought it was pretty self evident though unless you are looking for something. I am also not sure why I would even have answer this, but I guess I shall since your inuendo is I was doing something "tricky". I talked to him because he is a Tall Ship Captain, a member of the TSC and I wanted to see what his opinion was that seems kind of obvious isnt it.

Remember his Tall ship occupies a slip to from mine. When he and I talked a week ago down at the boat, while he helped me winterize my boat. We talked extensively about the Bounty, Tall ships and the community and the regulations that are they undergo. He gave me a lot of insight into something I didnt have much information on. We talked about his experiences. I didnt post them on here yet, but I may still.

Since then Sparklepl3nty has posted, so I showed him was he/ she said about the Bounty.

But why are you asking. First one poster here wants to see proof through pictures and emails of my relationship with Walbridge, Now you wants to know why I talked with my friend...2 slips down from me in a marina who is the Captain of a registered Tall Ship classB about what another Tall Ship Community member said?? I thought I made that clear.

So what was the trick question? Do you know the Captain of the Witchcraft? Is the only what you were refering to. I dont get it...why would that be a trick question. Why would I even ask a trick question? What would I gain from that? Mark, maybe you can shed some light on your assertion as maybe not didnt really take away from it.

I posted an ariel view of the slip where by boat is and I am in the slip . Witchcraft is actually three down from me and must have been out for a sail this day ( Thats for you doubters ). Do you need an affadaviet notorized from the Captain of the Witchcraft top prove I am his friend or we belong to the same club?

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Last edited by chef2sail; 12-11-2012 at 07:55 PM.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
This is not a Ship, much less a Tall ship. This is a Classic yacht and not even a big one with 60ft. A nice one I would say.
I am getting so tired of this. Having to prove everything I say, and having everything I say get challanged. Well really only by two of you who seem to have a vendetta

Paulo..Please get you facts straight again. Witchcraft IS considered a ClassB Tall ship. Now maybe it doesnt meet your standards, or whatever you have dreamed up for us what the standard is, but it seems to meet the standards for the OP Tall ship celebration in Baltimore held this summer.

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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
....
From your post it seems as though one of the things you are saying here is that this underfunded vessel, staffed by mostly green sailors was kind of a train wreck waiting to happen. ....

It seems as though this poster indicates it was inevitable that something would happen to the Bounty every time she left the dock. Sailing off into a hurricane insured that it happened that day.
You are talking saying things and implying others that clearly were not said or meant by the tall ship sailor (sparkle) on his post. Other tall ship sailor had said, already by other words, about the same thing that was said by sparkle. He had gave not any example of incompetence in what regards seamanship, as Sparkle, but said also that the boat had a bad reputation and green sailors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
You and your associates on the well funded tall ships must have joked and talked about the Bounty in amazement and worried all the time that she would self destruct due to her green crew inability to handle the most basic of operations, or the lack of managerment of the vessels maintainence. ...

I bet she was a true embarrassment to the rest of the "real" tall ships in terms of professionalism as she really wasnt of the same ilk, and caliber and discipline or esprit de cor that you had on the "real" tall ships.

... It propably miffed many that the Bounty received so much attention and admiration from people because in your mind and the other TSC community she was really not of the same class as your ships.
....
No wonder you and some in the TSC now want to distance your self from them. I guess you couldnt when they were alive as you were collegues and didnt want to be tagged with being jealous of the publicity and noteriety this wannabe tall ship received. Also you want people to know that you have more stringent qualifications as far as crew and condition of your ships. You are the serious tall ships after all and the Bounty was just playing at it.

Maybe you could go back to some of your frriends and have them post similarly as you or at least come forward some way annonomously to weigh in on this Bounty in this or other forums. Now that you have made it apparent that she really was the outcast, the black sheep of the tall ship community...
And your tone here is really wrong. You are implying that Sparkle is cowardly and anonymously making insinuations about the Bounty, when it was you in first place that asked him his opinion about the Ship, that as I have said, is much the same of another tall ship member that had posted already about that.

That is ugly and not a way to treat a new member that had the kindness to answer the best way he could the questions you have made to him.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 12-11-2012 at 08:03 PM.
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