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  #1431  
Old 12-18-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

On another topic, I am curious if BountyDaughter is defending Robin's reputation on any other forum. There are many with this same thread. Indeed the Jan Miles letter was not actually posted here, it was referenced. If so, which ones and, if not, why SN? We might learn something. Having seen some of these other forums, we certainly have no monopoly on criticism.

Has Jan removed the letter from his FB page and have you confronted him directly?
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  #1432  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
On another topic, I am curious if BountyDaughter is defending Robin's reputation on any other forum. There are many with this same thread. Indeed the Jan Miles letter was not actually posted here, it was referenced. If so, which ones and, if not, why SN? We might learn something. Having seen some of these other forums, we certainly have no monopoly on criticism.

Has Jan removed the letter from his FB page and have you confronted him directly?
I am not currently on any other forums. The only reason I came originally was because when I googled Jan C Myles this forum came up and I found his letter posted. I said what I wanted to say and then when people commented on my post I felt the need to reply. I have to say it has gotten quite out of hand.
I knew nothing of this forum beforehand and I am not looking for forums to defend my stepfather. If I happen to see something that I feel is incorrect then I will say something but I am not out looking to do it. I commented on one thing and got sucked in.
I have not found Jan Miles' Facebook page but my mother has sent him an email with wording similar to my post.
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  #1433  
Old 12-18-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

If you really want to read some more informed criticism of the Bounty incident, meander over to Sailing Anarchy and check out "The Official Trash the Bounty Thread". The crowd there is not quite as sweet as the Sailnet group and I can't recall whether anyone is coming to Capt. Walbridge's defense over there.
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  #1434  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Part of the beauty of Sailnet is the truth that emerges from a heated discussion. I see nothing wrong with zealous advocacy from different points of view. Truth comes out of conflict and controversy. No one should expect the polite conversation of a Victorian parlor conversation and no one is forcing anyone to participate. If you do not like a particular discussion, go to a different thread. Personally, I have learned quite a bit from this discussion and we may have actually saved some lives here.

The moderators do a good (and thankless) job of cutting people off when it gets too personal.
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Old 12-18-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
Part of the beauty of Sailnet is the truth that emerges from a heated discussion....Personally, I have learned quite a bit from this discussion and we may have actually saved some lives here...
Do not confuse "truth" with "consensus." The latter can emerge from heated speculation and discussion of hypotheticals. The former can only emerge from a formal investigation of the real facts.

I'm not trying to stifle discussion. Debating hypotheticals ("if he did X in response to Y then that was the wrong decision because he should have done Z") can be a helpful teaching opportunity and can save lives. But it does not lead to the real truth about what actually happened.
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  #1436  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
If you really want to read some more informed criticism of the Bounty incident, meander over to Sailing Anarchy and check out "The Official Trash the Bounty Thread". The crowd there is not quite as sweet as the Sailnet group and I can't recall whether anyone is coming to Capt. Walbridge's defense over there.
I read Sailing Anarchy forums all the time and have followed them. They certainly are not a civil group, and skewed for the racing sailor also.
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  #1437  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
Chef, you've asked PCP to calm down and now that he has, you're confronting him over it? He isn't going to fully change his position, nor should he have to. I'm going to have to separate you two......
Ha...we were seperated at birth obviously. There have been an obvious divison of opinions on here about what is fact, what is opinion. The discussion for the most part has been healthy. There is a line at which the rhetoric IMHO was too personally aimed at the Captain. Again it was obvious where the two sides drew the lines at that. If someone changes their mind thats great.

If we want to become Sailing Anarchy and fall into the trap of incivility where evry post starts with the old SNL skit..."Jane you ignorrant sl.t" then IMHO we will lose a lot of posters and people here. There have been more than enough personal insults, inuendos, prejucied remarks thrown around in this thread ( I am guilty also). I feel it took away from it. Just MHO.

Dave
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  #1438  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
Part of the beauty of Sailnet is the truth that emerges from a heated discussion. I see nothing wrong with zealous advocacy from different points of view. Truth comes out of conflict and controversy. No one should expect the polite conversation of a Victorian parlor conversation and no one is forcing anyone to participate. If you do not like a particular discussion, go to a different thread. Personally, I have learned quite a bit from this discussion and we may have actually saved some lives here.

The moderators do a good (and thankless) job of cutting people off when it gets too personal.
The moderators do a good job. They stepped in when there was an antisemetic remark I agree, A spirited argument is good. Brow beating is not. While what you say is true...you don have to read it, I wonder, actually I taled to 8 Sailnetters at a get together last Sunday for brunch. Almost all of them had something to contribute about the Bounty in opinions. Almost al of them said they didnt contribute because they didnt want to get skewered by the zealots in the thread. So how many other people do you think that encompassed.

While it isnt a Victorian culture in here and doesnt need to be, losing peoples opinions just becauise of the tone of postings which may provide different insight and perhaps a new view in a learning experience isnt necessarily a good way to go either. I am not without fault for contributing to that, but as far as Ive seen I am the only one to openly admit that. The rest defend their tone vociferously and yes zealously.
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  #1439  
Old 12-18-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
This is either disingenuous or you have completely changed your mind like Rick ( Takefive) said some people would.
No, I did not change of opinion regarding the facts. The one that keep changing of opinion his you. You, as usual, are taking unfounded conclusions about what I have said. I am talking about the letter. You should read better what I post before posting nonsense. I said to Bountydaughter:

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
...Regarding that letter, that was posted in the Facebook and then on Sailnet not on this thread but here:

An Informed Opinion about the Bounty

You can find all the discussion regarding that letter not on this thread but on the one that I posted above.

Your mother and yourself would be glad to know that ( even if most of us don't understand why the captain set sail and setting sail why he did not evade the hurricane or look for shelter on several possible ports) the position regarding that letter was quite unanimous. Almost everybody, including me, felt and said that it was not a way to express an opinion much less from someone that says it was a friend of your father.
..
I have said about that letter:

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by blowinstink
Except the amateurs found appropriate ways of expressing those opinions. I read it again this morning and I am just as disgusted as after my first pass last night. Whatever the substance, I don't know how anyone can defend the manner in which he attacks the deceased Captain of the Bounty


Specially if, as it was stated by the OP, the Captain was a friend of his.

I can easily dispense such a kind of friends

...I am referring to the author of the article posted on the Facebook. The author was supposedly a friend of the Bounty's captain and what I am saying is that I don't consider that someone should talk like that about a deceased friend, even if he had made mistakes...

... have understood and agreed if he expressed factually is opinion in an official inquiry if the opinion was asked to him, but without solicitation posting on the face book his opinion, that in my opinion is essentially truth, not in a factual way but with pomposity reveals bad taste and in my opinion not a great character. I maintain that I prefer not having friends like him....

I am saying that a friend (the author of that article on the facebook) should not have publicly said those things the way he did about a friend, even if they were basically true. No colored glasses here, except if they were red ones, no loyalty either...and I would say a strange kind of friendship displayed.


I think that only you cannot see that clearly I don't agree with the way that opinion was expressed. I am starting to be used to that. Clearly you have difficulty in understanding what I post.



Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
You have since the 8th post, posted harshly against the Captain. prejudged him and spoke vehemenly about him personally without cause.

Questioning his decisions is one thing this is another., You have either agreed with or called him a jackass, irresponsible, or an idiot. You posted harsh opinions you found in the proifessional gCaptain site, similar to Jan Miles, and just as harsh time and time again to prove you points. Quite possibly he saw that and thought his would be appropriate here.
yes, of course, I do agree with the Jan Miles (and the other Tall ship Captains) about the accident and the responsibility of Bounty's Captain regarding it. What I have disagreed is in the way he expressed it.

I never called the Captain jackass or idiot. I don'y use that kind of language and don't insult people. I said that he had taken an idiotic decision. That is not the same as calling him an idiot. Even the brighter among us take from time to time idiotic decisions. You say that I call him Jackass and idiot because I, like other reputable members, have liked the posts where he was qualified as that, and that is just ridiculous. When one likes a post that does not mean that we would use the same language that was used by the poster but that we globally agree with the meaning of the post, not with the exact terms used.

I never used the term Jackass and I have the opinion that has a Professional Captain he was irresponsible not only this time but in all other times that he sailed hurricanes (as it was stated by him, his wife and the crew). Yes I consider irresponsible a Captain that sails a XVIII century designed wooden boat ship to "get a good ride out of a hurricane".

It seems that you think nobody has the right to have a different opinion than the one you have. Of course I may be wrong and a Captain that does that kind of stunt, with that kind of boat, may be considered by some as a prudent Captain, as all good captains should be, but not by me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
You have been far from polite to her father in your posts. having an opinion is one thing...expressing it harshly is another....then stating you were not part of the impolitness.... is even another. You have the right to post whatever you want and have your opinion. Below are exerpts from some of the posts and I only went as far as #555.

You have also agreed and signified that you liked the following posts
[B]Quote:
Didn't the idots in charge monitor the weather for the past week? The owners should be billed for the rescue- psoed by Sawwhet..I agree with that. posted by PCP.
,
Quote:
If you have read the posts on the listerv long enough, you will already have realized there is no shortage of fools who take to the sea as an escape. Do not risk your life on someone who does not demonstrate common sense and sound judgment.I am beginning to see a pattern on the listserv. After every major storm, we do a play by play on some jackass who decides to leave port immediately prior to the arrival of the storm. Who is going to be next unfortunate victim?
,
Quote:
There is no rush to judgment. No further investigation will ever portray this captain as wise, careful or cautious, given what we already know about his decision-making in the circumstances. We are not required to search for a superceding cause to exonerate him

Quote:
Originally Posted by SawWhet
Didn't the idots in charge monitor the weather for the past week? The owners should be billed for the rescue.

Quote:
If you have read the posts on the listerv long enough, you will already have realized there is no shortage of fools who take to the sea as an escape. Do not risk your life on someone who does not demonstrate common sense and sound judgment.

I am beginning to see a pattern on the listserv. After every major storm, we do a play by play on some jackass who decides to leave port immediately prior to the arrival of the storm. Who is going to be next unfortunate victim?

Quote:
There is no rush to judgment. No further investigation will ever portray this captain as wise, careful or cautious, given what we already know about his decision-making in the circumstances. We are not required to search for a superceding cause to exonerate him.
James Wilson Post 264 liked PCP
This is absolutely ridiculous. You quoted a great number of post made by other posters that don't think like you and are trying to make a process of opinion. I have been polite in my posts and the fact that I do not agree with you does not mean I should be refrained to have opinions and express them, specially when they are agreed by many.

You say that I and Casey liked those posts but forget to say that many other reputable posters like them either. As I have said, liking a post means not necessarily that we would have used the same words but that we liked the global meaning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
IMHO I think this thread should be locked now. Going after Bountydaughter was the last straw. ...
Nobody is going after Bountydaughter and I guess that only you can imagine that.

We know that you think this thread should be closed. You said that many times and still you keep posting. It seems that the main reason you want it closed is because the global opinion about the subject is different from the one you have. I don't like neither the intent of shutting down other opinions that diverge from yours, neither the intimidation processes that you try to use on me and others for that propose.

You have misquoted me again and I hope this time you would apologize. It was not me that had said this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post

You have personally made statements about him like:
...
Quote:
No further investigation will ever portray this captain as wise, careful or cautious, given what we already know about his decision-making in the circumstances.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 12-18-2012 at 10:28 AM.
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  #1440  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

PCP...Thanks for your posts on this topic. Your opinions are just as valid as anyone else's opinion. Your posts have more supporting documentation than most others and show considerable study, which makes them esspecially valuable.

Chef....You have posted probably more posts on this topic than anyone else. You seem to get angry when you can't control the outcome of the conversation. When you get angry, you throw out some nasty slights against the persons who post something you don't like. Remember Mantus anchor posts.....Mantus was essentially accused of unethical behavior by you, but as near as I can tell, when all the rocks hit the ground, they are a pretty straight up group. It's all just opinions and it's not necessary to win everytime.
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