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  #1451  
Old 12-18-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

I have a recollection of a jury I sat on once. We were 11 guilty to 1 undecided, deadlocked. It was painful. Juror #3 kept asking for testimony to be read back, reenactments in the jury room, etc. It started very healthy and all jurors, including me, really wanted to hear another point of view. It became obvious, after an entire day, that Juror #3 wanted attention and we were just lapping over old ground. I suggested to my fellow jurors (privately) that we just sit still and not say a thing. If juror #3 wanted to speak, we would answer, but not push the conversation. We literally sat silent for 5 minutes, which feels like an eternity. The next word spoken was from Juror #3 and she said, "I guess you are all right", he's guilty. (Felony assault, by the way).

For those that want this thread to stop, I highly suggest you not continue to provide fodder to discuss. Those that wish to continue the topic of Bounty, will do so, but I'm certain will faded out faster. Most of the last couple of hundred posts have only been debating whether we should post at all. Ironically, it those that want it to stop that have given ongoing life to the thread. Think about it. Or reply, but I warned you......
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  #1452  
Old 12-18-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
If the Captain said he liked to sail Hurricanes, if the wife says that his husband sailed plenty hurricanes, if the crew says that the Bounty sailed hurricanes to the point of saying that "Bounty loves Hurricanes" it seems to me that the odds are that they had sailed hurricanes previously. That is a lot of people to be all bullshiters.

The Captain's wife was very adamant about that in the interview she gave on a TV program. She said, questioned about this Captain's statement:

Quote:

"Walbridge said "you try and get up as close to the eye of it as you can, and you stay down in the southeast quadrant, and when it stops, you stop. You don't want to get in front of it — you want to stay behind it. But you'll also get a good ride out of a hurricane."

Claudia McCann said Tuesday that during the public television interview her husband was "being a little…cute, I guess."

"But he would like hurricanes because they pushed him, they made him go fast. And he's been in many hurricanes. I mean, I can't even count the number of hurricanes he's been in."


HMS Bounty captain 'wasn't gambling' with lives, wife says - World - CBC News

Probably she is exaggerating but I don't think she is lying so I guess that the Captain and the Bounty had been in some hurricanes before.

Audio | As It Happens with Carol Off and Jeff Douglas | CBC Radio

By the way, I have posted on the interesting sailboat thread some movies about tall ships. On some of them we can see how those boats can be sailed and what sails are used with F10 winds. Of course, even if those boats seem to be the same as Bounty there is a huge difference, a difference of two centuries in boat design.

Regards

Paulo
PCP,
Thanks for the video post, I will take a look.

My point is even though Bounty Capt/Crew say they have sailed hurricanes, I do not believe that ship ever encountered hurricane conditions (Sustained winds over 75 mph). This is based on the video that has been posted here of bounty sailing in much less winds and the ship heeling excessively and equipment falling apart (rig and pump systems). I think if Bounty had truly encountered hurricane conditions prior to Sandy, she would have sunk in her first hurricane. Bounty may have sailed near a hurricane, but far enough away to not have hurricane conditions- huge differance.

In any case, if the ship was playing with hurricanes, in my opinion that is not good seamenship.

Last edited by casey1999; 12-18-2012 at 12:46 PM.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Though I have occasionally contributed to this very long dialogue, I would not be unhappy to see this thread end.

We could be pick it up again during or after the Coast Guard Hearing (anyone know the schedule on that?) once we have some new first-hand or impartial expert facts or opinions. Til then, I humbly submit that with 1450 or so posts, we have chewed the existing fat more than thoroughly, to the point where we are grumbling about style and attitude rather than substance.

Deep breath and let's await Christmas, everyone??
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by nolatom View Post
Though I have occasionally contributed to this very long dialogue, I would not be unhappy to see this thread end.

We could be pick it up again during or after the Coast Guard Hearing (anyone know the schedule on that?) once we have some new first-hand or impartial expert facts or opinions. Til then, I humbly submit that with 1450 or so posts, we have chewed the existing fat more than thoroughly, to the point where we are grumbling about style and attitude rather than substance.

Deep breath and let's await Christmas, everyone??
This is the internet. Talk is cheap. Just tune out until the CG issues their report (probably around this June), if that is what you like. Why do some want to control the internet and or forums. No one is forcing anyone hear to read or contribute to the post. This is what the internet is for- welcome to the 21st century.
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Old 12-18-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
I have a recollection of a jury I sat on once. We were 11 guilty to 1 undecided, deadlocked. It was painful. Juror #3 kept asking for testimony to be read back, reenactments in the jury room, etc. It started very healthy and all jurors, including me, really wanted to hear another point of view. It became obvious, after an entire day, that Juror #3 wanted attention and we were just lapping over old ground. I suggested to my fellow jurors (privately) that we just sit still and not say a thing. If juror #3 wanted to speak, we would answer, but not push the conversation. We literally sat silent for 5 minutes, which feels like an eternity. The next word spoken was from Juror #3 and she said, "I guess you are all right", he's guilty. (Felony assault, by the way).
Interesting

I was on a jury about 15 years ago. Vehicular homicide. Husband and wife in the car with their baby. Country road. One of them driving. Police charged the husband. Young baby of 8 months killed in the accident Testimony and trial lasted 1.5 days, lots of circumstantial evidence. No eyewitness to who was driving. Both parents accused each other of being at the wheel in the press but invoked spousal priviladge in the trial.

Jury deliberations started , foreman came in and stated well it looks obvious what the verdict is, so we read some testimony went over definitions of vehicular homicde and took first poll. 10-2 to convict. The 10 in the majority were upset. The two in the minority asked to go though all the testimony point by point. Reinacments, charts were also done in the jury room. One day dragged into two dragged into three...every poll taken came back 10-2. The majority got even more vocal about the 2 holdouts. Charges of favoritism...charges of being coerced...charges of being stupid...charges of not having enough sense to see all the facts. Majority reiterated time after time that it was obvious who was at the wheel, but couldnt be determined by factual eyewitness or forensic evidence. Deadlock continued into day 4 with majority of playing the emotions of the 2 holdouts that someone had to be held responsible. Lots of peer pressure. Finally 1 of the 2 relented. Trial ended in a hung jury. Lots of hard feelings between the majority and the one holdout juror. The one holdout kept reiterating she was not conviced. No real evidence who could determine which parent was actually driving.

8 months later in the newspaper there was a story of a woman committing suicide. In her handwritten note she admitted she was driving. The one juror was correct

BTW I was not the one holdout juror. Shame on me. I went with the mob.
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  #1456  
Old 12-18-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
PCP,
Thanks for the video post, I will take a look.

My point is even though Bounty Capt/Crew say they have sailed hurricanes, I do not believe that ship ever encountered hurricane conditions (Sustained winds over 75 mph). This is based on the video that has been posted here of bounty sailing in much less winds and the ship heeling excessively and equipment falling apart (rig and pump systems). I think if Bounty had truly encountered hurricane conditions prior to Sandy, she would have sunk in her first hurricane. Bounty may have sailed near a hurricane, but far enough away to not have hurricane conditions- huge differance.

In any case, if the ship was playing with hurricanes, in my opinion that is not good seamenship.
Yes I have said that there are probably exaggeration in what regards saying the boat was in so many Hurricanes that she would mot care to count. We have here a say: "Where there is smoke there is fire"... and that is a bit what I think. If not Hurricanes it seems evident that the ship sailed many times in very bad weather.....and that is a ship not to be sailed in bad weather, specially if we consider a relatively inexperienced non professional small crew.

I guess that Minnewaska resumed what I think with this statement:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
The lesson is that anyone could become more risk tolerant if they successfully dodge the bullet on previous attempts. You may win a few hands, but the casino always wins in the end. Could save your life to remember it.
That as I see it, means that if you take significant risks that does not mean that you are going to sink. You can even, if very lucky, get always away with it, but every time you try it once more, probability laws says that your chance of getting away is becoming smaller.

On other hand, and contradicting this smaller change of getting away, one that has gotten away many times start to believe that is chances of getting away are bigger and not smaller as they are in reality.

This can give a very dangerous sense of confidence that is not supported by reality. I guess this is a valuable lesson for all of us. Certainly it is for me.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 12-18-2012 at 01:34 PM.
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Old 12-18-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Of course, the verdict must be unanimous in a criminal case and the judge will admonish the jury to reach a verdict and keep sending them back until it becomes clear there is a hung jury.

But, the judge does not tell you that he can then properly declare a mistrial and the double jeopardy clause does not necessarily prevent a re-trial of the accused.

Some jurors are better at reading the demeanor of witnesses and judging their veracity. Sadly, some judges are no better than the average person, or are worse, even though they are routinely called upon to perform that task.

In this case, however, unlike your jury trial example, the facts are not in dispute. It is simply a matter of whether a reasonably prudent professional skipper would have left port in the circumstances. The exact reason for the sinking becomes irrelevant after the skipper made the decision to leave port.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

True, I know James got my court analogy .

No matter how the majority felt,
No matter what it obviously appeared to be
No matter how they thought they were right with the circumstantial evidence
No matter how many expert witness were brought to testify
No matter how the majority browbeat the minority jurors
No matter how loud and boisterous and intimdating the majority jurors were
No matter how much the mob ganged up on the one remaining juror

She held firm
And when the FACTS finally came out 8 months later it was only her who saved the innocent man from being convicted.

There is only a very small number facts so far because they have not been independently verified and challenged.

The Bounty left the dock with the Cpatain in charge- the only thing to date I have
commented on so far concerning the Captain but that may even be premature
Sandy existed
The ship sank

We really dont even know if the Captain was coerced or threatened or was even in
charge the whole trip
We really dont know the condition of the ship just unchallenged statements
We really dont know what happened the whole time and chain of events on the ship
just unchallenged statements

None of the gcaptain statements count
None of the Sailnet statements count

All statements, all circumstantial evidents are not considered undiputed facts until challenged in a court or even the inquirey

What Rick (takefve) and I have said all along to many who keep bandying this word fact around like Paulo is that they are not facts in the legal sense. I still do not understand why he cannot get this basic concept. Like my jury analogy: relying and mixing conjecture, hypothesis, unchallenged evidence, and unchallenged statements and coming to conclusions and not awaiting the true facts is a rush to judgement. This rush to judgement has the affect of ruining Robin Walbridges reputation. This IMHO is not
Quote:
polite behavior
I learned my lesson from that jury trial years ago how dangerous rushing to judgement is. Right now we have Paulo as the leader and a various others who are leading the charge to convict. They have mountains of circumstantial evidence, They have tremendous thories based on it. They have all sorts of internet statements and TV statements unchallenged to support their stance. They have the emotional high ground because of the incredulity of sailin off into an impending storm. None of this means ANYTHING until it is challanged and the FACTS ( which have been vetted) emerge. That wont happen until the inquirey or a court case. So yes while all are entitiled to opinions here they are not facts and the people who dont share the opinions of the majority should not be ridiculed or shouted down or have their credentials challanged any more than the majority should.
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Last edited by chef2sail; 12-18-2012 at 06:32 PM.
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  #1459  
Old 12-18-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
(snippage)In this case, however, unlike your jury trial example, the facts are not in dispute. It is simply a matter of whether a reasonably prudent professional skipper would have left port in the circumstances. The exact reason for the sinking becomes irrelevant after the skipper made the decision to leave port.
And if it was found that the Bounty struck a submerged object (like a conex), that would be irrelevant? An event like that could have sunk virtually any wooden vessel, no matter the condition of the mechanical plant.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Yes, or if the ship was hit by an asteroid.

So far, no one in the crew has mentioned any superceding causes of the sinking.

Any reasonably foreseeable other causes (engine failure, bilge pump failure, mechanical failures, dismasting, etc.) would not matter. If you voluntarily choose to sail out into a hurricane, or the edge of a hurricane, you should reasonably expect to capsize due to ordinary materiel failures that may merely be inconveniences in good weather.
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