HMS Bounty in trouble... - Page 147 - SailNet Community

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  #1461  
Old 12-18-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
Yes, or if the ship was hit by an asteroid.

So far, no one in the crew has mentioned any superceding causes of the sinking.

Any reasonably foreseeable other causes (engine failure, bilge pump failure, mechanical failures, dismasting, etc.) would not matter. If you voluntarily choose to sail out into a hurricane, or the edge of a hurricane, you should reasonably expect to capsize due to ordinary materiel failures that may merely be inconveniences in good weather.
I don't think you are being reasonable. Hitting a submerged object could have sunk her in the best conditions. Multiple faliures of the mechanical plant would most likely also be a life threatening event in any weather. The ship apparently suffered multiple failures, and to date there is no answer as to what caused that to occur. Something as simple as striking a submerged object in heavy seas is a very real possible cause. The fact that such an event has not been mentioned in the press at this point does not rule it out. It is even possible that the survivors would not have known that it happened. Yes, it is a hypothetical, but no more far-fetched than many others.

You are basically saying that the actual cause of the sinking is irrelevant.
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  #1462  
Old 12-18-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
...

There is only a very small number facts so far because they have not been independently verified and challenged.

The Bounty left the dock with the Cpatain in charge- the only thing to date I have commented on so far concerning the Captain but that may even be premature
Sandy existed
The ship sank

We really dont even know if the Captain was coerced or threatened or was even in
charge the whole trip
We really dont know the condition of the ship just unchallenged statements
We really dont know what happened the whole time and chain of events on the ship
.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
...
In this case, however, unlike your jury trial example, the facts are not in dispute. It is simply a matter of whether a reasonably prudent professional skipper would have left port in the circumstances. The exact reason for the sinking becomes irrelevant after the skipper made the decision to leave port.
No matter what, the Captain was responsible for having sailed out of port in a ship that was not seaworthy to sail near an hurricane; he was responsible for instead of running from the Hurricane or going to one of the possible good ports available; he was responsible to chose to sail a Hurricane.

These are errors that had tragic consequences, errors that a professional captain should not have made under any circumstances. These were no mistakes, this were gross errors. You have already basically agreed with this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
No bet here Minnie. Nothing found will take away from Walbrifges responsibility. It will just maybe add other causitive factors to the events of the day or days....

The investigation, whenevrr it concludes in many months will determining the rest of the facts from rumors

I am not of the opinion that the Captain should not take full blame for HIS actions of sailing into the hurricane so I cant come up with an alternative scenarios. I will restate my belief for the 50th time HE IS REPSONSIBLE FOR HIS ACTIONS FULLY .
So it seems clear that we agree on that and that is the basic issue. Those errors was what lead to the sinking of the boat. Without that errors we would not be discussing this.

About the rest there could exist or not mitigating circumstances and the interest of this thread is not on judging nobody since the facts are self evident, but to try to understand why it happen and the details regarding all the situation.

This is not a court and we just make educated guesses based on evidence. I am not judging nobody, I just manifest opinions based in what I know and most of all based on the opinion of the ones that have a much better informed opinion, namely tall ship captains or even professional mariners.

I am sure that the CG will have a lot more facts than us and will be able to pin point much more accurately what happen and most of all why it happen.

Meanwhile I will continue to try to find more relevant information just because I am interested in the subject and in trying to understand how this could have happen.

Regarding that, I think that is of paramount importance for the CG investigation to know if this was an isolated incident that had (or not) as mitigating circumstances an undue pressure from the owners of the boat to be able to attend an already booked calendar or if it was normal the Bounty to sail in heavy weather, I mean if this was not an isolated event but the only one that went wrong.

I don't even know if the CG is going to investigate that, but even if they don't do it, I will continue to have the opinion that will be important to understand the origins of this accident, meaning why Bounty's Captain had chose to do what he has done: Try to sail an Hurricane with a XVIII century designed wooden ship.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 12-18-2012 at 06:30 PM.
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  #1463  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Wow, did my jury example fly over everyone's head. I wasn't referencing the disgestion of facts or whether a jury find the correct verdict.

I was specifically referencing the method in which we brought it to an end. You guys are all provoking Juror #3 and begging for the conversation to continue. So be it. You missed it.
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  #1464  
Old 12-18-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

PCP,
You are right, and thanks for all your research. What if we all sat idley by waiting and waiting for the Coast Guard report? What would we know? Would we blindly believe everything that will be in the report, or will we have some basis to compare to and double check the CG findings?

I say the more information we have the more informed we will be. Once the CG report is out we can resume this thread in full force. It will be interesting. Until then, let's just keep it going. I am sure Sailnet loves the hits on their web site.
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  #1465  
Old 12-18-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
Yes, or if the ship was hit by an asteroid.

So far, no one in the crew has mentioned any superceding causes of the sinking.

Any reasonably foreseeable other causes (engine failure, bilge pump failure, mechanical failures, dismasting, etc.) would not matter. If you voluntarily choose to sail out into a hurricane, or the edge of a hurricane, you should reasonably expect to capsize due to ordinary materiel failures that may merely be inconveniences in good weather.
Key words here voluntarily- while probably true not a fact as of yet. Reasonably expect- by what a Sail Net reason. Does anone know for a fact, is it written down, what the tolerances for the ship were?

Would you say Colombus, Magellan, Vasco de Gamma, Cortez, William Perry, Rolf Almudsen, Shakley. Tenzing Nordgay, Sir Edmind Hillary Neil Armstrong, Jimmy Johnson, Richard Petty, Dennis Conners were reckless?

Yes it would be proably reckless for a Sailnet poster. But isnt there are larger assumed risk when you volunteer to board a ship going out into s storm knowingly?
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Last edited by chef2sail; 12-18-2012 at 06:40 PM.
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  #1466  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999
...A lot of what we read, see and hear seems to be what the crew and captain "think" happened, not really what happened.
So because the statements of people who were actually there don't agree with the artificial reality that you guys have created (by repeating your speculation so much that you've deluded yourselves into thinking it's "fact"), you have the gall to belittle their statements by claiming that they are not really what happened.
Certainly a legitimate point, but I'd take this slight exception...

Right from the start, I believe some here have placed way too high a value on some of the statements from crew, considering them as literal "truth", simply by virtue of the fact they were there, or knew the captain personally...

The well-informed postings of sparklepl3nty confirmed my suspicions about the BOUNTY's crew - namely, that some appeared to be extremely "green", to use her polite term... Obviously, a lack of experience would have little to do with their impressions of the skipper as a man, but could certainly inform their opinions about the seamanship employed during the final voyage, and certain comments of crew in the wake of her loss offer a rather stunning disconnect from reality...

The "engineer" Barksdale has been the primary source of information, and yet he admitted he was not even aware of Sandy until shortly prior to leaving New London... That ANY crewmember aboard a tall ship, about to make an offshore passage the full length of the Atlantic seaboard in hurricane season, could be so unaware, is difficult for me to imagine... Furthermore, unless one assumes Barksdale remained in virtual isolation from the rest of the crew that week, never speaking to ANYONE else, it seems obvious that most of the rest of the crew was similarly "clueless" about the weather, and the plan of the voyage, as well... One would think a major hurricane moving directly up the track of their route would have been a likely topic of conversation among that crew, no? One really has to question how involved some of that crew was in the operation of the BOUNTY, and assume that they might simply have just been along for the ride... and thus, how likely the possibility that some of their impressions or recollections from that final voyage might not be particularly well-informed, from a nautical perspective...

So, I'm simply suggesting that some of the comments, from some of that crew, might be rightfully taken in the context of their apparent inexperience, and perhaps with more than a grain or two of salt...

Last edited by JonEisberg; 12-18-2012 at 06:47 PM.
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  #1467  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
.....
I will continue to have the opinion that will be important to understand the origins of this accident, meaning why Bounty's Captain had chose to do what he has done: Try to sail an Hurricane with a XVIII century designed wooden ship.

Regards

Paulo
And remember, the Bounty was not a XVIII century designed wooden ship. Do not give it that much credit. It was a ship designed to be a movie prop and hold "movie crew" (as opposed to sailing crew) and movie equipment, and be burned at the end of movie filming. It had little or no basis of design on proven historical ships.

I have asked many times what are the sailing options and techniques of this ship in a serious storm. No one has provided a response. Not even the Bounty crew member who posted on this thread a while back. From what I gather, the only technique used by bounty in a storm was furl all the sails and start the engines. That is not historically what these ships did in storms.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
... Does anone know for a fact, is it written down, what the tolerances for the ship were?

Would you say Colombus, Magellan, Vasco de Gamma, Cortez, William Perry, Rolf Almudsen, Shakley. Tenzing Nordgay, Sir Edmind Hillary Neil Armstrong, Jimmy Johnson, Richard Petty, Dennis Conners were reckless?

Yes it would be proably reckless for a Sailnet poster. But isnt there are larger assumed risk when you volunteer to board a ship going out into s storm knowingly?
Well, that is certainly a new way of looking at it.

Regards

Paulo
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  #1469  
Old 12-18-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Would you say Colombus, Magellan, Vasco de Gamma, Cortez, William Perry, Rolf Almudsen, Shakley. Tenzing Nordgay, Sir Edmind Hillary Neil Armstrong, Jimmy Johnson, Richard Petty, Dennis Conners were reckless?
These men used every bit and piece of knowledge (weather prediction) and storm tactics that they knew or could get their hands on in order to sail their ships in the safest manner of their time. This cannot be said of how Bounty was sailed.
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  #1470  
Old 12-18-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
....
I have asked many times what are the sailing options and techniques of this ship in a serious storm. No one has provided a response. Not even the Bounty crew member who posted on this thread a while back. From what I gather, the only technique used by bounty in a storm was furl all the sails and start the engines. That is not historically what these ships did in storms.
It seems you have seen the movies I have posted

Regards

Paulo
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