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  #1471  
Old 12-18-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

[
Quote:
quote=PCP;963703].....



No matter what, the Captain was responsible for having sailed out of port in a ship that was not seaworthy
Again this is not a fact that is wasnt seaworthy. You keep beating this drum, but this has not been proven,. Posting something you do not know to be true and pretending it is fact is dangerous. Someone might read it and mistake it for fact and actually beleive it. Just because you find a few posts from people who comment on it, you dont know this for sure. There are conflicting reports even from even the people who were on the boat. Until they are examined with challenging questions, the repair records, the maintainence records are examined BY PROFESSIONALS, which has not been done to date you can only claim this. It is not a fact and should NEVER be posted like it is.

Quote:
These are errors that had tragic consequences, errors that a professional captain should not have made under any circumstances. These were no mistakes, this were gross errors. You have already basically agreed with this.
What I have agreed to is That IF IF the records show that he left the dock and he knew/ thought he was putting the ship and himself in danger then he made a gross error. It is still just my opinion like yours is yours. I do not beleive anything is factual until it corroborated. So while I rush to an opinion here where we differ is I do not rush to judgement.

Quote:
So it seems clear that we agree on that and that is the basic issue.
We do agree on this. But I dont say it is a fact until proved so. Until then It is your...and my hypothesis. Thats why I refuse to judge.

Quote:
About the rest there could exist or not mitigating circumstances and the interest of this thread is not on judging nobody since the facts are self evident, but to try to understand why it happen and the details regarding all the situation.
Again there are no facts yet, just conjecture and snippets of information from many and varied sources. None of which are on the record as of yet.

Quote:
This is not a court and we just make educated guesses based on evidence
.
Evidence is circunstantial and heresay right now thus my example of my time on on the jury where the circumstantial was not correct at all


Quote:
I am not judging nobody, I just manifest opinions based in what I know and most of all based on the opinion of the ones that have a much better informed opinion, namely tall ship captains or even professional mariners.
They are still speculating from their own reference points that is the tall ship captains. I put no credence in any of the other posters on gcaptain as I am a member and can post there and have no experience to speak of with this.

Quote:
I am sure that the CG will have a lot more facts than us and will be able to pin point much more accurately what happen and most of all why it happen.
Totally agree with you here

Quote:
Meanwhile I will continue to try to find more relevant information just because I am interested in the subject and in trying to understand how this could have happen
.
Understood. me too, but whatever I find till its cross examined and challnge it will not be a fact.

Quote:
Regarding that, I think that is of paramount importance for the CG investigation to know if this was an isolated incident that had (or not) as mitigating circumstances an undue pressure from the owners of the boat to be able to attend an already booked calendar or if it was normal the Bounty to sail in heavy weather, I mean if this was not an isolated event but the only one that went wrong.
Totally agree, Was Robins job threatened? Was there undo pressure put on him? If so why did he leave and still not just stay put?

Quote:
I don't even know if the CG is going to investigate that, but even if they don't do it, I will continue to have the opinion that will be important to understand the origins of this accident, meaning why Bounty's Captain had chose to do what he has done
I understand They will investigate this
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Last edited by chef2sail; 12-18-2012 at 07:04 PM.
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  #1472  
Old 12-18-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
Wow, did my jury example fly over everyone's head. I wasn't referencing the disgestion of facts or whether a jury find the correct verdict.

I was specifically referencing the method in which we brought it to an end. You guys are all provoking Juror #3 and begging for the conversation to continue. So be it. You missed it.
Minnie we got it. We are Sailnetters we didnt necessarily agree
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  #1473  
Old 12-18-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
These men used every bit and piece of knowledge (weather prediction) and storm tactics that they knew or could get their hands on in order to sail their ships in the safest manner of their time. This cannot be said of how Bounty was sailed.
You dont know that. What kind of info did Colombus or Shakleton get, Hillary get. How about those guys who race those vessels sailing around the world in the Roaring Fourties around Cape Horn with 40 ft seas////are they reckless. Do they stop when the conditions get worst and think about killing the rest of the crew? Hell no the put the pedal to the metal. They stop for nothing.

Dont tell me those boats are really made to stand the weather they encounter. They are Carbon fiber/ Kevlar flyers

dave
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  #1474  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Minnie we got it. We are Sailnetters we didnt necessarily agree
I'm in for as long as the ride lasts then. Seems like the calls to end the thread have been the only thing that stopped.
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  #1475  
Old 12-18-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
[Again this is not a fact that is wasnt seaworthy. You keep beating this drum, but this has not been proven,. Posting something you do not know to be true and pretending it is fact is dangerous. Someone might read it and mistake it for fact and actually beleive it. Just because you find a few posts from people who comment on it, you dont know this for sure. There are conflicting reports even from even the people who were on the boat. Until they are examined with challenging questions, the repair records, the maintainence records are examined BY PROFESSIONALS, which has not been done to date you can only claim this. It is not a fact and should NEVER be posted like it is.
...
So after all it seems that you have changed of opinion and don't agree with this anymore?

"Nothing found will take away from Walbrifges responsibility. It will just maybe add other causitive factors to the events of the day or days...."

And you think that a XVIII century designed wooden small ship, whatever the condition, could sail safely an Hurricane?

How!!!! you should talk or listen to the ones that know and sail tall ships, I mean captains, designers, mates. Even if their Ships are more seaworthy, with a design advance of almost 200 years and made of steel, they would not dream of sailing an hurricane.

Even with a real crew, a XVIII century captain would have tried to evade a Hurricane.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 12-18-2012 at 07:19 PM.
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  #1476  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
I'm in for as long as the ride lasts then. Seems like the calls to end the thread have been the only thing that stopped.
Yep me too. I tried a few times to. To no avail. People see it as censoring opinions I think.

Oh well. I will have to keep defending
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Ok, here is how I see the half time report going.........

Critics of the Captain and Bounty have found and posted several first hand accounts of the voyage and condition of the ship, letters from professional members of the Tall Ship Community, media interviews, official Bounty web pages, tracking of the boat's path, etc, and have found the preponderance of this evidence to be convincing of some level of wrong doing and criticism.

Supporters of the Captain dispute the validity or applicability of all of the above mentioned references and have offered no contradicting evidence of their own.
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  #1478  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
It seems you have seen the movies I have posted

Regards

Paulo
Could you provide a link, I could not find, Thanks
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
You dont know that. What kind of info did Colombus or Shakleton get, Hillary get. How about those guys who race those vessels sailing around the world in the Roaring Fourties around Cape Horn with 40 ft seas////are they reckless. Do they stop when the conditions get worst and think about killing the rest of the crew? Hell no the put the pedal to the metal. They stop for nothing.

Dont tell me those boats are really made to stand the weather they encounter. They are Carbon fiber/ Kevlar flyers

dave
Even Open 60, that are massively seaworthy boats evade really bad weather when they think their safety is at risk. Last edition of vendee globe some that have find ahead really bad weather have taken shelter behind land before the worse of the storm passed them. And if I remember well it was not an Hurricane but 60K winds.

And what has Colombus to do with it? At that time do you know what was the average rate of success from a voyage from Lisbon to Goa and back? Do you think those safety parameters are adequate today? Do you think that if they had available weather information, like Bounty did, they would sail to nasty weather instead of waiting it to go away?

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 12-18-2012 at 07:36 PM.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
So after all it seems that you have changed of opinion and don't agree with this anymore?

"Nothing found will take away from Walbrifges responsibility. It will just maybe add other causitive factors to the events of the day or days...."


Paulo
I still agree with the opinion that he shouldnt have left. That he had that responsibility. He made the call. Even if the company put pressure on him he had alternatives. I dont know what he was thinking and never will. My opinion is he will be held responsible for leaving the dock.

However I have said their were other factors which caused this also which may play into this. That maybe this ship would have sunk had not other things happened. He made it most of the way except he got pinned at Hatteras the graveyard of the Atlantic.

I await as more fact become available, but my standards for facts may differ from others so I still reserve my final judgement until some things have been investigated more thoroughly. This ship was in heavy weather before it appears...so why this time?

I still beleive I have always said that there are other things responsible for this tragedy.

We have actually agreed more than you think all along. I just refuse to call things facts which arent challenged and vetted. I also may have tried lkess to come up with conclusions or judgements yet. Most of where we have duisagreed has been about that. Challanging you facts and judgements.

I am still willing to keep learning as I have in this thread about something I never gave much thought to before. And you have done a lot of research and brought a lot of different angles into it for which I thank you. I just dont always agree with the conclusions.
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