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  #1491  
Old 12-19-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
The boats used to find new routes and explore were Caravelas. That was mostly done by Portuguese and some Genovese that worked with Portugal. Even Colombo learned in Portugal and was married with a Portuguese. Magalhães that discovered the way to go to Spain trough the Pacific Ocean was also a Portuguese working for Spain.

Caravelas where the best upwind boats of that time.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/7elGP3bGmgo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

After the map of winds was discovered those boats were substituted by ships that were made to sail mostly downwind. to give you an idea of the size of those babies take into consideration that the Bounty had a displacement of about 500T, those babies, the called Manila Galleons, on the XVI century averaged between 1600 to 2000 tons. They had full knowledge of the Hurricane season and sailed out of it even if several big vessels were sunk by hurricanes out of season.

Manila galleon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Regards

Paulo
Quote:
The Niña, like the Pinta and Santa María, was a smaller trade ship built to sail the Mediterranean sea, not the open ocean
Pinta was a caravel built in Spain,,,deck 56 ft weighed approx 60 tons
Nina was a caravel built in Spain,,,deck 50 ft weighed approx 60 tons
Santa Maria was a Nao (carack) built in Spain ocean going deck 25 feet
weighed approx 100 tons

Bounty was a Collier built in Britian ocean going..deck length 90 wieghed
approx 215 tons
New Bounty built Nova Scotia....ocean going...deck length 120 weighed
approx 410 tons
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  #1492  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Sparkle..Glad to see you back

did you have a threshold of wind speed/ sea height you would not travel in? I know this is hard to define as it could also be directional also and of course doesnt take into account what you may encounter in the course of passage making.

What are the two largest wind speeds and sea states you have sailing in on a Class A Tall Ship. Which one was it?

Dave
I've had a busy weekend

Phew.. this one's gonna be a toughy, mostly because of memory.
Making the decision to sail depends on decisions by the captain and mate, as well as the reasons for sailing, and takes into account the type of vessel.

One of the biggest seas in memory was several years ago en route from British Columbia to San Francisco on a 151' steel brigantine. If I recall correctly, they were about 15' feet rollers with some breakers, and 40-50 knots of wind. I think the weather lasted a little over a day, and our boat loved it. If I recall correctly, we we set our fore and main staysails, and our mainsail was undersized, so we reefed it and set that. Honestly, I felt really safe on that boat during this weather. She sailed well with a following sea, and seemed to just ride over most of the waves.

My first ship like I mentioned earlier was a 112' wooden brig, and way more like a washing machine than anything else.. I think that time she was making 11 knots was in 30 knots of wind, and waves high enough to break over the chest high caprail.. so perhaps 10 feet?

Another boat I sailed on was a 106' steel ketch with squares on her mainmast and a very shallow draft of 3'.. she was AWFUL against any head seas or winds, and felt like riding an ATV in any kind of chop. I remember a trip heading north from Morro Bay to San Fran, and all but myself, the cook, and the captain seasick.

The most squall-y sailing has been in the South Pacific with a 140' steel gaff-rigged ketch (converted from a 1950s fishing boat). I don't remember the windspeed of it, but a squall we encountered not only shredded our staysail (which was the only thing we had set), but bent our 5" diameter steel bowsprit to one side. She was great for the most part to sail in, but when she was fully loaded (used as a cargo sailing boat) to her plimsoll line, she was very roll-y and sluggish.

Other ships less than 100' have been schooners, and most of those have been dependent on passengers, so the weather would certainly be taken into consideration. As mate on a 60' steel schooner, I would often make the call with the captain whether or not we would take passengers out. Though the schooner has been in much heavier weather, usually we would decide against sailing in anything higher than 20 knots, simply because it's not a comfortable (or dry) ride for passengers. On the other hand, with just crew we raced down the Chesapeake Bay on a 104' wood schooner in 25-35 knot gusty winds with both headsails, foresail, and a reefed mainsail, and had a great, if slightly nervous, trip in less than 18 hours.

As for stuff I don't like to sail in, it really depends on the boat. The windage of Bounty, due to her higher bulwarks and freeboard, would respond much stronger and list more heavily than most schooners of similar "Class A" size (if no sails are set, of course). Also, the shape of hulls will also determine how a boat fairs in conditions. There's no real answer other than being familiar with a boat, being aware of any "issues" with it, and trusting that vessel will get you home.
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  #1493  
Old 12-19-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Pinta was a caravel built in Spain,,,deck 56 ft weighed approx 60 tons
Nina was a caravel built in Spain,,,deck 50 ft weighed approx 60 tons
Santa Maria was a Nao (carack) built in Spain ocean going deck 25 feet
weighed approx 100 tons

Bounty was a Collier built in Britian ocean going..deck length 90 wieghed
approx 215 tons
New Bounty built Nova Scotia....ocean going...deck length 120 weighed
approx 410 tons
Of course, all those ships were Ocean going vessels and still are even if the difference to modern boats is huge. That does not mean that any of them is seaworthy sailing an Hurricane.

None of them, not even much bigger and more modern wooden Tall Ships would be seaworthy in an Hurricane. Many in their day were sunk by smaller storms than an hurricane and no Captain of those ships would even think in sailing an Hurricane if they new that it was out there waiting for them. They would all try to evade it, staying in port or running away from it. That is basic good seamanship.

For being seaworthy in an hurricane I mean a ship that can handle a hurricane at sea with a good safety margin, not one that can eventually get away with it if luck plays a big role in it.

Even today there are not many type of ships that can sail a hurricane. The huge majority when goes out of port not to be damaged there by it does so to run away from the hurricane not to sail it. They can do it because they have the speed to out run a Hurricane.

That was not the case of Bounty that did not try to run away from an Hurricane, but tried to sail it out. Bounty had not also the the speed needed to run away safely from an Hurricane.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 12-19-2012 at 10:20 AM.
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  #1494  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
Agree 100 percent. Minnie's summary is grossly unfair to those of us who merely want to wait to hear more real facts. I do not understand why he feels the need to belittle and mock that position.
Well gee, TF. No intent to belittle and mock. Sorry.

I am trying to make the point that it is convenient to dismiss everything until some government authority tells you what they think.

There was a hit and run accident near my home last year. The guy that ran turned himself in the next day. All that saw him the night before at the bar, knew he was drunk, including his friends. It seems clear that he ran to avoid a DUI conviction. The victim was hurt, but not killed. He ultimately settled a lesser charge below fleeing the scene, but the authorities were not able to conclude, without a breathalizer or blood test, that he was actually drunk.

Official investigations are restrained. They do not include all the facts. That young ladies family knows this very well.

Personally, I dismiss the idea that these authorities are always right, or will even bother vetting half the things we are discussing.
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  #1495  
Old 12-19-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sparklepl3nty View Post
I've had a busy weekend

Phew.. this one's gonna be a toughy, mostly because of memory.
Making the decision to sail depends on decisions by the captain and mate, as well as the reasons for sailing, and takes into account the type of vessel.

One of the biggest seas in memory was several years ago en route from British Columbia to San Francisco on a 151' steel brigantine. If I recall correctly, they were about 15' feet rollers with some breakers, and 40-50 knots of wind. I think the weather lasted a little over a day, and our boat loved it. If I recall correctly, we we set our fore and main staysails, and our mainsail was undersized, so we reefed it and set that. Honestly, I felt really safe on that boat during this weather. She sailed well with a following sea, and seemed to just ride over most of the waves.

My first ship like I mentioned earlier was a 112' wooden brig, and way more like a washing machine than anything else.. I think that time she was making 11 knots was in 30 knots of wind, and waves high enough to break over the chest high caprail.. so perhaps 10 feet?

Another boat I sailed on was a 106' steel ketch with squares on her mainmast and a very shallow draft of 3'.. she was AWFUL against any head seas or winds, and felt like riding an ATV in any kind of chop. I remember a trip heading north from Morro Bay to San Fran, and all but myself, the cook, and the captain seasick.

The most squall-y sailing has been in the South Pacific with a 140' steel gaff-rigged ketch (converted from a 1950s fishing boat). I don't remember the windspeed of it, but a squall we encountered not only shredded our staysail (which was the only thing we had set), but bent our 5" diameter steel bowsprit to one side. She was great for the most part to sail in, but when she was fully loaded (used as a cargo sailing boat) to her plimsoll line, she was very roll-y and sluggish.

Other ships less than 100' have been schooners, and most of those have been dependent on passengers, so the weather would certainly be taken into consideration. As mate on a 60' steel schooner, I would often make the call with the captain whether or not we would take passengers out. Though the schooner has been in much heavier weather, usually we would decide against sailing in anything higher than 20 knots, simply because it's not a comfortable (or dry) ride for passengers. On the other hand, with just crew we raced down the Chesapeake Bay on a 104' wood schooner in 25-35 knot gusty winds with both headsails, foresail, and a reefed mainsail, and had a great, if slightly nervous, trip in less than 18 hours.

As for stuff I don't like to sail in, it really depends on the boat. The windage of Bounty, due to her higher bulwarks and freeboard, would respond much stronger and list more heavily than most schooners of similar "Class A" size (if no sails are set, of course). Also, the shape of hulls will also determine how a boat fairs in conditions. There's no real answer other than being familiar with a boat, being aware of any "issues" with it, and trusting that vessel will get you home.
The point that Chef wants to know and that is in discussion here is:

Do you think any of those ships you are talking about could sail with an adequate safety margin an Hurricane like Sandy?

Do you think that any of the Captains of those boats would have tried to sail an Hurricane like Sandy if they had the option to stay in Port or look for shelter in a nearby Port?

By the way, I have posted some great videos of Tall Ships in bad weather here. Have a look, I guess you are going to enjoy:

Interesting Sailboats

Regards

Paulo
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  #1496  
Old 12-19-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
Well gee, TF. No intent to belittle and mock. Sorry.



Official investigations are restrained. They do not include all the facts. That young ladies family knows this very well.

Personally, I dismiss the idea that these authorities are always right, or will even bother vetting half the things we are discussing.
Be that as it may, whos investigation would have a larger probability of establishing true facts,,,,,the Sail Net/ gCaptain one or the Coast Gaurds?
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  #1497  
Old 12-19-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Of course, all those ships were Ocean going vessels and still are even if the difference to modern boats is huge. That does not mean that any of them is seaworthy sailing an Hurricane.

None of them, not even much bigger and more modern wooden Tall Ships would be seaworthy in an Hurricane. Many in their day were sunk by smaller storms than an hurricane and no Captain of those ships would even think in sailing an Hurricane if they new that it was out there waiting for them. They would all try to evade it, staying in port or running away from it. That is basic good seamanship.

For being seaworthy in an hurricane I mean a ship that can handle a hurricane at sea with a good safety margin, not one that can eventually get away with it if luck plays a big role in it.

Even today there are not many type of ships that can sail a hurricane. The huge majority when goes out of port not to be damaged there by it does so to run away from the hurricane not to sail it. They can do it because they have the speed to out run a Hurricane.

That was not the case of Bounty that did not try to run away from an Hurricane, but tried to sail it out. Bounty had not also the the speed needed to run away safely from an Hurricane.

Regards

Paulo
My point in posting the sizes of the ships was this. Times have changed how we perceive danger and responsibility of the sea.

The ships the explorers and early colonists to the Americas were far smaller, much more fragile, no electric pumps or advanced building techniques, yet these poeple left for the Americas knowing they would face some heavy weather. I knew they sailed the trades back or the Westerlies over, but somewhere along the way they faced storms of simnliar force as a Sandy ( maybe not size)

We all beleive they were very brave people to have done what they did. Get in these smaller ships Overload the ship with animals, provisions and sail off to the west not really knowing the weather. Brave very brave.

Obviously what we call a good safety margin has changed.

By todays standards we would call these peoiple reckless...want the Captains if they survived held for manslaughter and sue the corporations

Times have changed.

Must be the lawyers
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Last edited by chef2sail; 12-19-2012 at 11:08 AM.
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  #1498  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
......

We all beleive they were very brave people to have done what they did. Get in these smaller ships Overload the ship with animals, provisions and sail off to the west not really knowing the weather. Brave very brave.

........
Times have changed.

......

Indeed times have changed.

Not only didn't they 'know' what weather was on the way, they didn't even really know that there was anything over the horizon.. I'm not sure all the crews had a lot of choice about where they were going but the expeditions' sponsors and the Captains had a pretty powerful motive of possible fame and fortune if things went well.

It wasn't just the 'brave explorers' either...

The story of the Hector (brief wiki recap here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hector_(ship)

Imagine being a poor, desperate Scottish farmer looking for a better life.. near 200 souls crammed aboard in tiered platforms with 4 feet headroom in the dark below.. they ran into a storm that drove them 3/4 of the way back to Scotland. The Captain persevered and got them to Nova Scotia (he wouldn't have been paid otherwise!)

This sort of story was common, of course, as Europeans flocked to the 'new worlds'....

Sorry for the drift...
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  #1499  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faster View Post
Indeed times have changed.

Not only didn't they 'know' what weather was on the way, they didn't even really know that there was anything over the horizon.. I'm not sure all the crews had a lot of choice about where they were going but the expeditions' sponsors and the Captains had a pretty powerful motive of possible fame and fortune if things went well.

It wasn't just the 'brave explorers' either...

The story of the Hector (brief wiki recap here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hector_(ship)

Imagine being a poor, desperate Scottish farmer looking for a better life.. near 200 souls crammed aboard in tiered platforms with 4 feet headroom in the dark below.. they ran into a storm that drove them 3/4 of the way back to Scotland. The Captain persevered and got them to Nova Scotia (he wouldn't have been paid otherwise!)

This sort of story was common, of course, as Europeans flocked to the 'new worlds'....

Sorry for the drift...
Drift...in this thread....ha ha. Good post.
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  #1500  
Old 12-19-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sparklepl3nty View Post
Sorry, I might have missed your questions among the other posts.

I don't know what Bounty would typically sail with in bad weather, but in the past on other vessels, we have set fore and main staysails (usually "storm sail" sized) and the occasional spanker or reefed mainsail. On my first ship, when the captain decided the weather was harsh enough to take in our lighter sails, we set the main staysail, and pretty much "flew" under these smaller sails and otherwise bare poles.. I think we reached 11 knots, compared to our usual 5-6 knots. A former crewmember on Pride of Baltimore II told me they had storm trysails to set in place of the foresail or mainsail.
Sparklepl,
Thanks for coming back and post. Sounds like you have had a lot of experience. My question is with Bounty, say in winds above 60 knots, what would you think would be the best tactic? In your other post you speak of wind strength, but nothing greater than 50 knots.
Regards
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