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  #1501  
Old 12-19-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
My point in posting the sizes of the ships was this. Times have changed how we perceive danger and responsibility of the sea.

The ships the explorers and early colonists to the Americas were far smaller, much more fragile, no electric pumps or advanced building techniques, yet these poeple left for the Americas knowing they would face some heavy weather. I knew they sailed the trades back or the Westerlies over, but somewhere along the way they faced storms of simnliar force as a Sandy ( maybe not size)

We all beleive they were very brave people to have done what they did. Get in these smaller ships Overload the ship with animals, provisions and sail off to the west not really knowing the weather. Brave very brave.

Obviously what we call a good safety margin has changed.

By todays standards we would call these peoiple reckless...want the Captains if they survived held for manslaughter and sue the corporations

Times have changed.

Must be the lawyers
Chef,
What we do now with sail boats in 100 years will probably be considered reckless. We still cannot predict hurricanes very well. We sail in boats that the hulls can easily be holed and sunk fast. We depend on stainless steel to hold up our mast, in which we depend to claw off a lee shore in storm conditions.

I would be curious to know what the probablilities were to successfully cross the Atlantic say back in 1700.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
I'm in for as long as the ride lasts then. Seems like the calls to end the thread have been the only thing that stopped.
Too much breeze. I reefed and went back into port.
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  #1503  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Be that as it may, whos investigation would have a larger probability of establishing true facts,,,,,the Sail Net/ gCaptain one or the Coast Gaurds?
The answer is clear to me. It will be the sum collection of the above, sorted out for inconsistencies.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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Originally Posted by nolatom View Post
Too much breeze. I reefed and went back into port.
Best line of the thread.
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  #1505  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
The point that Chef wants to know and that is in discussion here is:

Do you think any of those ships you are talking about could sail with an adequate safety margin an Hurricane like Sandy?

Do you think that any of the Captains of those boats would have tried to sail an Hurricane like Sandy if they had the option to stay in Port or look for shelter in a nearby Port?
This is easy.

No, no, and no.

An adequate safety margin? I don't believe that there is any such thing. Do I think that certain vessels may be more "prepared" or "seaworthy" to handle battling with a storm? Yes. Do I think that Murphy's Law could overtake them? Absolutely. To suggest otherwise would be idiotic and yes, ego talking. Even with a well-trained, best of the best crew, things can happen.

Would any of those Captains try to sail through or around Sandy? Absolutely not. Wonder how I know? Every single one of them stayed in port.

There was no reason to leave. As I said many, many posts ago, Picton Castle was planning on leaving Nova Scotia for a circumnavigation several days before Bounty left CT. Her captain prudently stayed in port until a few days into November in order to keep his crew, ship, and passengers safe. By the way, PC is a 179' steel bark, captained by a man who is in the same ranks as Captain Miles, and has completed five circumnavigations. EDIT: Captain Moreland of PC, has completed five circumnavigations with Picton Castle. According to his bio on the PC's website, he also owns an Unlimited Masters License.

Similar size, very different approach.
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Last edited by sparklepl3nty; 12-19-2012 at 02:31 PM.
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Old 12-19-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
And remember, the Bounty was not a XVIII century designed wooden ship. Do not give it that much credit. It was a ship designed to be a movie prop and hold "movie crew" (as opposed to sailing crew) and movie equipment, and be burned at the end of movie filming. It had little or no basis of design on proven historical ships.(snippage)
Casey, you have said this more than once, and it's not getting any truer by repeating it. The above statement is just not accurate.


Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
From what I gather, the only technique used by bounty in a storm was furl all the sails and start the engines. That is not historically what these ships did in storms.
I've seen at least one video of the Bounty in fairly big seas. While I wouldn't want to estimate how heavy those seas were, nor the wind speed, the video was nevertheless fairly impressive. The Bounty was flying the equivalent of a storm jib in the video. Other posters have mentioned a video of the Bounty hove to, but I haven't seen it myself. I believe thos would be two appropriate examples of storm tactics that haven't changed since the original Bounty sailed? Not arguing the point, would like to know what other storm tactics would have been employed 250 years ago.
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  #1507  
Old 12-19-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faster View Post
Indeed times have changed.

...Captains had a pretty powerful motive of possible fame and fortune if things went well.

It wasn't just the 'brave explorers' either...

...
Welcome to the thread. Drifting is what we do best on this thread


Drifting away, you cannot imagine the amount of information about the motives to sail in difficult conditions and against bad odds the Portuguese culture has in its long memory. By tradition and by taste the Portuguese always had that need to "sail away" looking for a better future. One world famous Portuguese Poet resumed the situation saying about us: "A little peace of land to born, the world to die"

Even today half of the Portuguese (including direct descendants) are somewhere in the world out of Portugal and it is difficult to find any country in the world without Portuguese. That is truly amazing since in Portugal the population is about half of the one of on the New York City Metropolitan Area.

Of course today they don't sail away and travel has everybody by airplane but it was never fame that move them. Mostly money mixed with an adventurous soul.

Some facts that put that risk of sailing in those days in perspective: for many years the mirage of wealth was India. A considerable proportion of ones that sailed there (XVI and XVII centuries) and managed to return, returned very prosperous, some rich, so there was never a shortage of crews and voluntaries for the ships.

The chances for them to return at all, rich or poor, were of about 50%.

The same poet says: "Salty sea, how much of your salt are Portuguese tears?"

Regarding Captains and fame let me tell you that we know very badly who were the great mariners of that time and they are not the ones that took the fame.

Vasco Da Gama or Pedro Alvares Cabral, the ones that discovered the way to India and Brazil were not mariners at all but Soldiers charged by the king to bring the mission to good success. They were mostly the guys that pointed a charged gun to a power cask when the crew (probably with good reason) was too afraid to go on and wanted to return. Or took care of the situation when they faced hostile forces, that were many.

The true mariners where what they called the pilots that were also the ones that had made before them all the reconnaissance work that made those voyage possible (and charted the winds).

We don't really know much about them just because the discovery of the world was not to achieve fame but richness. It is more than probable that Bartolomeu Dias, probably the best sailor in the XVI century had been before in Brazil (he was the Pedro Alvares Cabral pilot) but that was a hot political issue at that time and discoveries were a state secret and Portuguese were pretty good at keeping secrets.

Most of what we know is not from Portuguese sources (they were destroyed) but by the information that was collected by spies and used to made charts with Portuguese information.

At that time the Turkish empire were Portugal biggest enemy. Both the Turks and the Portuguese tried to dominate the Indian trade routes, so it is natural that the best map made with Portuguese information is just a Turk one (1512), made by a Turk Admiral, Hadji Muhammad (Piri Reis). He deserved a better luck: we has beheaded by Sultan's order after having lost a sea battle with the Portuguese.

He know only a fragment of that map.



Piri Reis Map of 1513.

THE MYSTERIES OF THE PIRI REIS MAP - 1

On that map there are a lot of land that was not supposedly been discovered yet and that made the lovers of para-normal to attribute those knowledge to ancient lost civilizations.

The map that was made also with information from a Colobus sailor and older sources is the first one that have reached our days that show North America and South America on the same map. Regarding South America, it is detailed since rio de la Plata, and include detailed information with Greenland and surprisingly what some says it is Antarctica, others Terra do Fogo.

That leads us to the question what was the great explorer that had done that? My bet is to one that had the bad luck of not having found nothing of value. I would bet on the almost unknown Gonçalo Álvares.

We know that Gonçalo Álvares and Americo Vespucci (working for the Portuguese) were exploring South America. Vespucci made public its discoveries so it had to be other explorer sailing in unknown waters and probably a Portuguese one.

In fact on the negotiations to the treaty of Tordesilhas, that divided the exploration of the world in two parts, the Portuguese made incomprehensible demands, regarding claiming a large portion of nothing, demanding the longitude separation line to be drawn several hundred miles further west.

Portugal got away with it and some few years later Portugal found, very casually, that empty space full of nothing was Brazil. We have no prove but it is strongly suspected that Brazil had been already discovered at the date of the treaty in 1496. It was officially discovered in 1500 but I strongly suspect that it was discovered by Bartolomeu Dias one of the true great navigators and the one that contributed decisively to the mapping of the trade winds.

Bartolomeu Dias is not a very famous name but I have no doubt that has the better sailor of his generation.

But the one that had been sailing more South was Gonçalo Álvares. We know that he found the Island that has his name and also know that was only a small part of his explorations. He had sailed South in the South Atlantic, presumably along the coast to places where the water and even the wine froze (of course they only sailed with wine). He was probably the one that explored those southern South American lands that are shown on the Piri Reis map before Magalhães had been there.

Gonçalo Álvares, whose exploits are not known was nominated chief-pilot of the navigation to India and the Ocean Sea until his death in 1524. That was his prize. He was just acknowledged as the best sailor of his time as Bartolomeu Dias was before, and of course that involved a high revenue.

Fame? not really, more money and a rise in the social rank, that obviously means also more money

The sad thing is that we know that he was the best but do not really know what he has done, only that he had sailed South to where the wine and water freezes and also that in 1505 he was already been promoted to the command of a big ship, the São Gabriel a nau that sailed on the Vasco da Gama fleet on the first voyage to India.

....

Here you have another one, Cristovão de Mendonça, the commander that explored part of the Australian coast and I even don't know if he was the one that actually had found it since he commanded a fleet to explore it and they would not send a fleet if they would not know that Australia was already there.

Wreckage of a Portuguese boat, a Portuguese cannon and now a map with the detailed description of part of the Australian coast leaves no doubts regarding the Portuguese having been there in the XVI century.

Map proves Portuguese discovered Australia: new book | Reuters

We know that in 1522 he was Captain of the Nau São Cristovão and commanded a expedition to explorer what was known as the Gold Island (probably Australia). In 1524 he made port in Cabo da Boa Esperança. In 1530 he was Captain of the Ormuz fortress. He died there in 1530.

We know that one of his daughters married with one of the main nobleman of the kingdom . On that time this could only mean that is value was greatly recognized and it was quite a prize for a small nobleman and a big upgrade in family ranking.

That exploration to Australia had to be maintained secret. Australia was on the part of the world the Pope had "given" to Spain. Never has been a big controversial issue with Spain because om that expedition they did not find any gold after all.


How about that as a thread drift?

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 12-19-2012 at 03:54 PM.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brewgyver View Post
Casey, you have said this more than once, and it's not getting any truer by repeating it. The above statement is just not accurate.



I've seen at least one video of the Bounty in fairly big seas. While I wouldn't want to estimate how heavy those seas were, nor the wind speed, the video was nevertheless fairly impressive. The Bounty was flying the equivalent of a storm jib in the video. Other posters have mentioned a video of the Bounty hove to, but I haven't seen it myself. I believe thos would be two appropriate examples of storm tactics that haven't changed since the original Bounty sailed? Not arguing the point, would like to know what other storm tactics would have been employed 250 years ago.
Yes I think I posted the Bounty video a while back on this thread. Wind probably no more than 50 knots maybe much less. No where near hurricane strength. My understanding of Bounty, when the wind got really big, they went to engines, and as I understand from crew statements, she was only on engines during the worst of sandy.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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Originally Posted by Brewgyver View Post
Casey, you have said this more than once, and it's not getting any truer by repeating it. The above statement is just not accurate.
Tell us more...
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sparklepl3nty View Post
This is easy.

No, no, and no.

An adequate safety margin? I don't believe that there is any such thing. Do I think that certain vessels may be more "prepared" or "seaworthy" to handle battling with a storm? Yes. Do I think that Murphy's Law could overtake them? Absolutely. To suggest otherwise would be idiotic and yes, ego talking. Even with a well-trained, best of the best crew, things can happen.

Would any of those Captains try to sail through or around Sandy? Absolutely not. Wonder how I know? Every single one of them stayed in port.

There was no reason to leave [/B]
As I said many, many posts ago, Picton Castle was planning on leaving Nova Scotia for a circumnavigation several days before Bounty left CT. Her captain prudently stayed in port until a few days into November in order to keep his crew, ship, and passengers safe. By the way, PC is a 179' steel bark, captained by a man who is in the same ranks as Captain Miles, and has completed five circumnavigations. EDIT: Captain Moreland of PC, has completed five circumnavigations with Picton Castle. According to his bio on the PC's website, he also owns an Unlimited Masters License.

Similar size, very different approach.[/quote]


Quote:
There was no reason to leave.
To all of us that that seems to be a true statement. Corse we dont know if he was ordered by his owner so until that has been determined that is not a fact, but a strong assumption. I dont even want to reignite the discussion he should have stayed against his owners wishes. I am sure the CG investigation will bear that out.

Actually PCP interpretations of my questions were not quite what I was asking, but Sparkle your answers seem to be what I would expect. Thank you for confirming.

Spakrle I have a few more.
None of these are meant to blame or exonerate the Capatin of the Bounty. Robin Walbridge, I fact these questionsare about TS culture in general

You seem to be a student of tall ship history so maybe you will be able to enlighten us on some of it.

The original Bounty and many of these ships were built during the age when we really had very little weather forecasting or prediction. That science was spearheaded hugely by the introduction of space satelllites in the mid 1960s.
So when these ships sailed originally in the 14th-mid 20th centuries they ran into severe weather. Obviously they either survived the weather or sunk. We extoll the coragousness of these men for setting out and being brave explorers and colonists of the Americas and their trade.

If judged by todays standards companies like the Dutch East India Trading Company were recklessly sending these men out in leaky boats ill equipped to handle these storms. None of them had engines, electric pumps etc.

Many of the tales told about by the seaman aboard these ships reflect that going to sea was an extremely dangerous occupation, and that for some of them a way of escaping opppression and / or their poor life in theoir countries as well as escaping religios persecution. Many paid with their lives, I am sure for what today we consider recklessness.

Why when we recreate this with many of the tall ships reinactments cruises (I have been on a number) is this not looked at this way. In fact the lifestyle of the tall ship crew has almost a mystique about it like its an Outward Bound Adventure. Somewhere in this giant thread of postings there was discussion of the crew of the Bounty and they were refered to as "cult followers" in regards to the Captain. I didnt beleive that, but maybe there is an element of truth to it.

You obviously love what you do and have fallen in love with the tall ships and their beauty, pureness and historical place in our lives.

Is it safer now? Assuming you feel it is what makes it safer?
Are there inherent risks in sailing centuries old designed ships?
Why do you think those Captains who sailed 300 years ago in those
rickety boats were not considered reckless and putting their crews in
danger when the cast off into the unknown.
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