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  #1521  
Old 12-19-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

My parents taught me something from an early age- the Capt was probably taught the same thing:

If someone tells you to jump off a bridge, will you do it?
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  #1522  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Chef, I get the point you are trying to make. However, even in your theoretical scenario where he was threatened with blacklisting, etc, I find it makes no difference whatsoever. When you are a paid, licensed professional with people under your care that are incapable of assessing risk (such as Claudine), you shouldn't have the stripes, if you can't deal with this exact scenario.
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  #1523  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
My parents taught me something from an early age- the Capt was probably taught the same thing:

If someone tells you to jump off a bridge, will you do it?
So youve done everything in life your parents taught you....come on thats too simplistic and in a vacum
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
Chef, I get the point you are trying to make. However, even in your theoretical scenario where he was threatened with blacklisting, etc, I find it makes no difference whatsoever. When you are a paid, licensed professional with people under your care that are incapable of assessing risk (such as Claudine), you shouldn't have the stripes, if you can't deal with this exact scenario.
Understand I am not saying this absolves him, doesnt make him not responsible., I already have stood by that as you all have.....Casey has already started swimming with the bait ,,,, I am saying it isnt as simple then until I hear that from the owner
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  #1525  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
So youve done everything in life your parents taught you....come on thats too simplistic and in a vacum
Not everything, but have not jumped off a bridge nor sailed into a hurricane.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

What I cant understand also is that why many of you arent looking for the other people who are and may be responsibile here.

Your focus on Walbridge and almost tunnel vison approach may be blinding you from focusing in on the other culprits here the owners

Its almost like a Law and Order Episode. Who said follow the money in a previous post. Thats a smart idea

Who stood the most to loose if the ship sank
Who stood the most to loose if the ship didnt get to St Pete
Who had the power to short cut the maintainence issues
Who had the power to spend more money and hire more experienced crew
Who has remained totally silent
Who made the decisions on outfitting the boat, quality of materials, pumps'
Why isnt the owner upset that this " irresponsible captain" acted on his own and sank
his ship and why has he not spoke out.
Answer to all these questions is the man with the money..the owner


Beware the man behind the screen pulling the strings who you can not see. It is to his advantage that the Captain takes the whole enchilada of blame and responsibility

Usually in liability cases % of responsibility is assigned

The inquirey will ask the questions under oath then we will know MORE of the facts. My intuition (which is MHO) is that you will be suprised somewhat. The main reason...noine of us..including me can understand why a experienced man would do this on his own.
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Last edited by chef2sail; 12-19-2012 at 06:14 PM.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

The owner is undoubtedly worried about being sued by Claudine's family, regardless of their involvement in the decision. Any attorney would put you on radio silence. No conclusion to draw from that.
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  #1528  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
What I cant understand also is that why many of you arent looking for the other people who are and may be responsibile here.

Your focus on Walbridge and almost tunnel vison approach may be blinding you from focusing in on the other culprits here the owners

Its almost like a Law and Order Episode. Who said follow the money in a previous post. Thats a smart idea

Who stood the most to loose if the ship sank
Who stood the most to loose if the ship didnt get to St Pete
Who had the power to short cut the maintainence issues
Who had the power to spend more money and hire more experienced crew
Who has remained totally silent
Who made the decisions on outfitting the boat, quality of materials, pumps'
Why isnt the owner upset that this " irresponsible captain" acted on his own and sank
his ship and why has he not spoke out.
Answer to all these questions is the man with the money..the owner


Beware the man behind the screen pulling the strings who you can not see. It is to his advantage that the Captain takes the whole enchilada of blame and responsibility

Usually in liability cases % of responsibility is assigned
Chef,
I myself looked for others to blame, did CG or harbormaster order them out of port, or did owner? Could not find evidence of any of these. I agree the owner probably put some pressure to set sail as they wanted to get to FL for a show and probably did not want ship damaged as it was for sale (although what was the ship insured for?).

In the end, a person in this position needs to handle the ship as they see fit, and be prepared to walk from the position if need be.
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  #1529  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Paulo..interesting story.

Never have heard the discovery and exploration of the New World from that point of view.

I knew Portugal was a seafaring nation and had made great expeditions to India and then the Far East

What about the Spanish? I knew they were led mainly by the thier soldiers. Also they were attempting to conquer, spread religion, and find wealth.

And the English?

Why didnt Portugal continue. Its seems in the 1500 the were passed quickly by the Spanish and the English in terms of amount of expeditions, maritime trading companies and especially colonization.

Maybe this should be a new thread?
Dave
Nah this thread is perfectly alright and I will not talk about the English or Dutch that have also a great maritime story, even if not comparable in what regards discoveries. But regarding your question see it this way.

The population of Portugal in the XVI century was 16 times smaller that the population of the metropolitan area of New York. about a million people and that counts also for old women ad children and not all men where sailors or soldiers, the land was worked.

The discoveries, either the Spanish ones or the Portuguese ones where a race for wealth that would come from the first that would find a sea way to India managing take out of the way the Turks and the Venetians that dominated the trade (by the red sea and the med) and got all the profits.

Columbus was working for Spain and his intention was to reach India sailing west. For many years he was convinced he had reached India. The Portuguese had more knowledge, know that continent was not India and that's why the Portuguese king was not interested in Colombo's offer that was made to him first.

But the word discovery of the sea way for India is not an accurate one. In fact the real discovery had to do with being able to pass Cabo da Boa Esperança and that means discovering the trade winds and that has nothing of logical has you know. For doing it it s needed to sail almost to Brasil before turning to the cape. After passing the cape and that was done by Bartolomeu Dias, it was just a question to go up a bit along the coast till already well known waters, sailed for centuries by Arab traders. From there on, it was not a discovery but a fight.

At the time the Turkish empire was one of the more powerful on earth and they were the ones that dominated that trade on the oriental side of the red sea. So it was not easy, considered the disproportion of forces and the fact that for being there or to send reinforces the Portuguese would have to circle all Africa while they were already there, on the red sea. It was possible because the Portuguese were better sailors, had better boats and most of all because we have a rare ability to go along with other cultures and rapidly made local allies. I would say that being a country that had been fighting with Mouros reconquering the occupied territory for the last 300 years (before the discoveries) would has given to the Portuguese a fair amount of fighting knowledge as a winning spirit.

Regarding Portugal have disappeared as an independent force in the XVI century that was much what happened. On those times countries had not what we would call today nationalism. What counted was the royal families and the noble families. When D. Sebastião, a not very bright kid that was unfortunately also a Portuguese king died in a Stupid battle that everybody said him not to engage, the legal owner of the Portuguese throne (by descendants) was the king of Spain.

The funny thing is that if the son of our precedent king had not been killed in a stupid race horse, the situation would be inverse and it would be the king of Portugal the legitimate king of Portugal and Spain.

So, it still were two different countries with the same king but obviously the interests of Spain were not the same as the Portuguese ones and Portugal forces were taken out of India and Brasil to sustain the main interests of Spain regarding a dominant position in Europe and if the invincible armada was not destroyed by a storm, that was not even an hurricane, Europe story could be different.

The Portuguese forces and fortresses in Red Sea, India, Africa, Macau, Malaca and Brasil had to fight without reinforcements against the enemies of Spain that know were also Portuguese enemies, meaning Dutch and English.

When the people, not the nobleman had enough of this situation, about 60 years later, they trough out of the window (literally) the Spanish representative and "invented" a new king. From there Portugal, that is much smaller and had a population about 5 times smaller than Spain had to fight a survival and bitter war with Spain that lasted almost 30 years.


Meanwhile the English and the Dutch taking advantage of the situation continue attacking the Portuguese Colonies in Brasil, China and India.

Giving the situation it is pretty amazing that Portugal had not only survived but managed to maintain Brasil, the African colonies, the main Indian colonies and Macau but off course, both this situations (King of Spain also the king of Portugal and the subsequent long war) changed the geo-strategic situation and prevented Portugal to continue dominating the trade route with India.

Anyway to my view the best contribute of that original million of souls that expanded Portugal by the world was the Portuguese that from one million native speakers is today spoken by 215 million native speakers and the number of speakers is increasingly very rapidly.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 12-19-2012 at 07:32 PM.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
I really dont like the idea of speculating as thats what I spoke against.

I will present a scenario- Disclaimer:Everyone this is not real...I am not saying it happened as I dont knokw if it did so dont go War of the Worlds on me and start using it as fact.

The owner calls up Robin and say to him. get the Bounty out of there. There is a storm coming up the coast it may hit New London. I dont want it destroyed at the dock. Wallbridge says to him, I dont want to go. Owner says to Walbridge you go or Ill fire you and get someone to move the Bounty like I did before in Florida and I will make sure you never find work again in the Tall Ship Community. We are a small community and I can make that happen

Thats tough pressure.
Not necessarily... Easy solution, has already been offered numerous times here...

Go hide behind the hurricane barrier in New Bedford...

Or, head up to the Hudson...

Or, head up Delaware Bay, and thru the C&D Canal...

Or, any one of several other options, which given the forecast at the time, would have exposed his ship, and crew, to minimal risk...

I find it pretty difficult to imagine that a ship's owner who ordered his captain to sail into a hurricane, would ever be in a position within the TSC to ensure that a captain who refused to do so, would "Never be able to find work again" within said community... Seriously?

Dream on...


Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
You know whats odd here...we have heard no one from the Bountys owner tell us, we told him not go, we questioned his decision about leaving. Maybe its because they didnt and cant claim that, You would think if they were trying to move themself away from liability here they would have issued at least that statement already. The fact that they havent may be because that statement would be a lie. The in fact pressured him to leave.

All this is mass speculation in my pea brain the other way just as I accused others of doing. hey I can do it too I just dont like saying it, I really dont want to do that. I did this on your asking Minnie and dont want to speculate.
Well, you're probably better just sticking with your professed reluctance to speculate... (grin)

We saw this in the wake of the loss of RULE 62, as well...

Anyone who ever thought that the owner, or any one representing him, was likely to weigh in here to clarify whatever questions we had, was delusional...
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