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  #1531  
Old 12-19-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
I really dont like the idea of speculating as thats what I spoke against.

..
You know whats odd here...we have heard no one from the Bountys owner tell us, we told him not go, we questioned his decision about leaving. Maybe its because they didnt and cant claim that, You would think if they were trying to move themself away from liability here they would have issued at least that statement already. The fact that they havent may be because that statement would be a lie. The in fact pressured him to leave.

All this is mass speculation in my pea brain the other way just as I accused others of doing. hey I can do it too I just dont like saying it, I really dont want to do that. I did this on your asking Minnie and dont want to speculate.

....
Why would the owner question the Captain's decision to leave when he says : The Ship is safer in the sea than in the port?

The owner certainly does not want to lose his ship and will trust the word of his Captain. He is not the one that should know what to do regarding ship safety. The Captain is the one that should know about that.

Why would he not trust the word of his Captain? For what I know the guy is not even a sailor.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 12-19-2012 at 07:51 PM.
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  #1532  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
To all of us that that seems to be a true statement. Corse we dont know if he was ordered by his owner so until that has been determined that is not a fact, but a strong assumption. I dont even want to reignite the discussion he should have stayed against his owners wishes. I am sure the CG investigation will bear that out.
Now that I see everyone jumping on my quote of "there was no reason to leave," I realize most people thought I was referencing Bounty, when I was in fact, referencing every single other TallShip on the east coast.

(As an aside, I giggle every time I see my name referred to as a "he." I am most certainly of the female persuasion Sparkle Plenty was a character from the old Dick Tracy comics.)

However, if you once again compare Picton Castle to Bounty:
Bounty did not at this time have any paying crew or paying passengers. As far as I understand, her entire crew were paid.
On the other hand, Picton Castle most certainly had paying trainees/passengers as well as paid crew. I do understand that she has a loose-ish schedule of when she is expected to be in her next port during her circumnavigation. What this means is that while there is an understanding that weather can throw a wrench in plans (whether it be due to lack of wind, postponing departure, weather systems to sail around/away from), I am sure that a paying trainee/passenger expects to arrive at their departure port at an approximate date. In other words, I am sure that when Captain Moreland delayed his departure more than a week there was some strain. Still, Captain Moreland decided what was best for the entirety of his ship, crew, and passengers. (If you read Rigel Crockett's "Fair Wind, and Plenty of It" you will get an understanding of the tension I am talking about.)

I will reply to the rest of your questions in another post, so that I can catch up a little.


Also, for those still thinking that the Facebook page was authored by Captain Walbridge, it wasn't. It was written by a young lady who worked in the office.

Last edited by sparklepl3nty; 12-19-2012 at 08:37 PM.
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  #1533  
Old 12-19-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Not necessarily... Easy solution, has already been offered numerous times here...

Go hide behind the hurricane barrier in New Bedford...

Or, head up to the Hudson...

Or, head up Delaware Bay, and thru the C&D Canal...

Or, any one of several other options, which given the forecast at the time, would have exposed his ship, and crew, to minimal risk...

I find it pretty difficult to imagine that a ship's owner who ordered his captain to sail into a hurricane, would ever be in a position within the TSC to ensure that a captain who refused to do so, would "Never be able to find work again" within said community... Seriously?

Dream on...




Well, you're probably better just sticking with your professed reluctance to speculate... (grin)

We saw this in the wake of the loss of RULE 62, as well...

Anyone who ever thought that the owner, or any one representing him, was likely to weigh in here to clarify whatever questions we had, was delusional...
We saw this in the wake of the loss of RULE 62, as well...

Quote:
Anyone who ever thought that the owner, or any one representing him, was likely to weigh in here to clarify whatever questions we had, was delusional
posted by Jon Eisenberg
John maybe you didnt read read the whole thing. The owner will be REQUIRED to testify at the inquirey

[/QUOTE]

Quote:
I find it pretty difficult to imagine that a ship's owner who ordered his captain to sail into a hurricane, would ever be in a position within the TSC to ensure that a captain who refused to do so, would "Never be able to find work again" within said community...
Yes seriously John. Youve been sailing by yourself on those boats in the cold to much. In the real world blacklisting happens all the time. Ever heard of whistleblower laws

Anywho I was responding about the facts will come out in the inquery. No more speculating...even if asked to
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Last edited by chef2sail; 12-19-2012 at 08:39 PM.
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  #1534  
Old 12-19-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sparklepl3nty View Post

Also, for those still thinking that the Facebook page was authored by Captain Walbridge, it wasn't. It was written by a young lady who worked in the office.
Has she ever referred to herself as "Bountysdaughter" by any chance?
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  #1535  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
Has she ever referred to herself as "Bountysdaughter" by any chance?
No, I don't think so. I'm willing to believe that Bountysdaughter is who she says she is, if only because I haven't "proof" to believe otherwise.
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  #1536  
Old 12-19-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sparklepl3nty View Post
...

(As an aside, I giggle every time I see my name referred to as a "he." I am most certainly of the female persuasion Sparkle Plenty was a character from the old Dick Tracy comics.)

..


Jesus, You are a girl (or a lady) I liked you before, I like you more now

I hope you join us not only for this thread.


Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 12-19-2012 at 09:28 PM.
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  #1537  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
Has she ever referred to herself as "Bountysdaughter" by any chance?
The young lady she refers to is the Director of the Bounty Foundation,Tracie. Jameswilson29, why are all your posts, especially regarding and directed at me, so hostile?
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  #1538  
Old 12-20-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
The original Bounty and many of these ships were built during the age when we really had very little weather forecasting or prediction. That science was spearheaded hugely by the introduction of space satelllites in the mid 1960s.
So when these ships sailed originally in the 14th-mid 20th centuries they ran into severe weather. Obviously they either survived the weather or sunk. We extoll the coragousness of these men for setting out and being brave explorers and colonists of the Americas and their trade.

If judged by todays standards companies like the Dutch East India Trading Company were recklessly sending these men out in leaky boats ill equipped to handle these storms. None of them had engines, electric pumps etc.
Thanks for the compliments. I spent several years before I joined any Tall Ship (or ever sailed, for that matter) working in maritime museums (Civil War and Jamestown eras), and I have been known to nerd out once in a while.

I'd make the argument that many of these sailors and explorers (in reference to officers) were by no means heading to sea blindly. There are thousands of years of knowledge and sailing lore that we use today. In the Bible, Jesus references the old adage, "red sky at night, sailor's delight. Red sky in morning, sailor's take warning," (Matthew 16:2-3) a statement that sailors heed today, even with all our fancy equipment.

There's an interesting little article on NatGeo about hurricanes, and instead of quoting it I'll just link to it. (Hurricanes of History -- From Dinosaur Times to Today)

And no, most of these ships didn't have engines or electric ships, but they did have hand pumps, which can go a long way.

Bowditch has been around sore over 200 years and Chapman's 100 years, and both are bibles to many mariners.

I'm not focused enough to think about this post too much right now (Christmas flu! Woohoo!) so please forgive me. But really, I recommend Dava Sobel's book "Longitude" and Tony Horwitz's "A Voyage Long and Strange" for some basic understanding of how much mariners did and didn't understand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Many of the tales told about by the seaman aboard these ships reflect that going to sea was an extremely dangerous occupation, and that for some of them a way of escaping opppression and / or their poor life in theoir countries as well as escaping religios persecution. Many paid with their lives, I am sure for what today we consider recklessness.

Why when we recreate this with many of the tall ships reinactments cruises (I have been on a number) is this not looked at this way. In fact the lifestyle of the tall ship crew has almost a mystique about it like its an Outward Bound Adventure. Somewhere in this giant thread of postings there was discussion of the crew of the Bounty and they were refered to as "cult followers" in regards to the Captain. I didnt beleive that, but maybe there is an element of truth to it.

You obviously love what you do and have fallen in love with the tall ships and their beauty, pureness and historical place in our lives.
As modern crew, we are aware of what our predecessors faced, and have had the discussion of whether we could "do it." Sometimes yes, sometimes no. In the end and for the most part, we are thankful that we have the modern technology and resources we have today. I do believe that we are aware how far we have come, and how much we do not understand still. One of my favorite captains, who was 61 at the time, explained to me that after 40+ years of captaining, the sea still had lessons for him.

To get back to your questions, there is SO much we don't know about sailing 200 years ago, nevermind millennia ago. Lynx and Pride of Baltimore II, both similarly designed vessels have found out in the last 11 and 24 years respectively (and the first Pride in her nine years) that we do not know enough about basic things like rig structure of boat designs less than 200 years old.

The ancient Polynesians traveled between tiny islands thousands of nautical miles apart, and scholars have no idea how they found their way. Clearly, islanders not only knew how to travel around, but also knew the weather. As I'm writing this, there is an amazing NOVA show on television about recreating an ancient Egyptian boat, one that sailed on the Red Sea and beyond. (Video: Building Pharaoh's Ship | Watch NOVA Online | PBS Video)

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Is it safer now? Assuming you feel it is what makes it safer?
Are there inherent risks in sailing centuries old designed ships?
Why do you think those Captains who sailed 300 years ago in those
rickety boats were not considered reckless and putting their crews in
danger when the cast off into the unknown.
Do I feel "safer?" We have better and more exact resources for predicting weather. We have EPIRBs, the USCG, SSB and VHF (and many other acronyms). We have backup systems like engines and engine- and electric-powered water pumps. We have watertight doors and regular inspections and drills. But no matter what tools we have or protections in place, it does come down to us as mariners maintaining our vessels, being aware, making prudent decisions, and learning from our and others experiences.

When the first Pride of Baltimore sank, the shipwrights, sailors, and everyone involved in the community learned from it. Part of that was adding watertight hatches and reducing sail.

To call it "reckless" is painting the explorers in broad ignorant strokes. As others have said, the difference between (to use posters' term) Walbridge's "reckless" decisions and the "recklessness" of past explorers and sailors is the "why" and the use of knowledge available to them.
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  #1539  
Old 12-20-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sparklepl3nty View Post
...
I'd make the argument that many of these sailors and explorers (in reference to officers) were by no means heading to sea blindly. There are thousands of years of knowledge and sailing lore that we use today. ..

There's an interesting little article on NatGeo about hurricanes, and instead of quoting it I'll just link to it. (Hurricanes of History -- From Dinosaur Times to Today)

And no, most of these ships didn't have engines or electric ships, but they did have hand pumps, which can go a long way.

....
Indeed, very interesting the article. And of course there is not needed a Hurricane to think a ship, a bad storm will do and many, even some modern ones, have suffer that fate.

One of the more impressive statements about that is what we call the História trágico marítima, this:

"The História trágico-marítima (trans. Tragic History of the Sea) is a famous 18th C. collection of narrative accounts of the travails and wrecks of several Portuguese ships, principally carracks (naus) on the India run between 1552 to 1602, and the oft-harrowing stories of their survivors.

The accounts (some of which had been previously published as pamphlets) were collected by historian Bernardo Gomes de Brito and published in two volumes in 1735 and 1736. It is said that Brito had enough material to publish five volumes, but ended up only publishing two. .."


História trágico-marítima - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are incredible stories on that book and it is a very interesting one, a true and rare description of old tragedies and shipwrecks.

The book was translated to English:

The Tragic History of the Sea

Regards

Paulo
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Old 12-20-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Thanks sparkle...

.just trying to figure out this whole distinction of reckless.

I guess some of what you are saying is when you have more information today and you venture into a 70 knott storm with 30 ft seas danger you are reckless.

400 years ago when you were sailing from Europe to the New World and you encountered the same weather/ sea state, you were brave and a hero. because you couldnt be forewarned and you survived it.

It seems that the explorers in the 15th and 16th century who really were venturing into uinknown or making return trip to the New World may have known some of the weather when they left, but 10 days out even using the sailors poem "red sky" which I adhere to also, they woudl be out in the Atlantic in their 60 ton Carvele 60 ft long. The way the old ships are designed that must have been pretty scary when they hit gales and large winds and seas. They truly had guts.

I would think the boats of the past surely handled similarly and all they could count on were the sails.

I admire what you are doing and am glad someone sees the value in preserving the older vessels and is willing to work on them as well as educate people about them.

As I know you have read some of this thread you know that I am a little more cautios about the Blame game with the Captain as well as assigning total responsibility of the sinking on him. Understand in the statement I know that the Captain of any vessel airplane is held ultimately responsible.

Do you feel the inquirey will be a valid one? Will the CG be impartial? Will they be able to get the full story out of the owner and the crew as well as maintainence records?

Dave

Dave
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