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  #1541  
Old 12-20-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
....

I would think the boats of the past surely handled similarly and all they could count on were the sails.

...

Dave
Finally we agree on something

Except about the quoted part. Sure, most of the boats and ships before the first world war where sailing boats or ships but there is an huge difference between a steel tall ship from the beginning of the XX century and a XVIII century wooden sailing ship, even if they displace the same. The same can be said between a XVII century sailing ship and a XV century sailing ship and again between one of those and a XII century sailing ship and again the same, regarding that one an a Phoenician trade ship.

They all used sails and have no engine but the safety margins and seaworthiness have been progressively increased and the same with boat/ship speed. Also the conditions where they could be sailed were different.

But regarding sailing ships not even the more modern ones and the more seaworthy where able to sail safely hurricanes. That does not mean that they wouldn't or wont get away with it if they were lucky. If someone plays Russian roulette with a gun and if got lucky he can survive, even several times...but if he keep trying, well, the odds are really bad.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 12-20-2012 at 10:57 AM.
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  #1542  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Speaking of how sailing ships of the past handled differently, I wonder how the scaled up movie set model of the Bounty handled differently than the original?
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  #1543  
Old 12-20-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by lancelot9898 View Post
Speaking of how sailing ships of the past handled differently, I wonder how the scaled up movie set model of the Bounty handled differently than the original?
This keeps gettting referred to which again conjures up an assumption not a FACT that the boat was built in a substandard way. You almost have everyone beliving they went sailing off in a cardboard version of a ship with toilet paper sails. Facts man facts not hysterial statements.

So where is the proof Lancelot....what expert says Bounty was than? We all know it was builit for a movie, so what, look at the other BOounty builkt for a movie ....I am not talking about how it was maintained....I am talking about the build quality and the sailability of the vessel when it ws built and when it was first used. Fron what I understand they used the exact British Navy plans only increased the length so it would be able toi be used for filming.

I am also including a link to the other movie set Bounty....the one built in NZ at a cost of @4,000,000. Do you know for a FACTthat the one bulit in NS was any different. This one appears to have been well made and is still in service.

HMAV Bounty

BTW if you rummage through the site there is some intersting reads and logs from Jamie White ( the square rigger) about his boat Torea and Jaho a Tahitian ketch which he sailed in large winds and seas. Either way an interesting read

http://fosbery.tripod.com/areflx/jaho-1.html
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  #1544  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Well Dave it may conjure all up all sorts of assumptions, but the FACT is that it was built as a movie prop and scheduled to be burned at the end of the filming.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by lancelot9898 View Post
Well Dave it may conjure all up all sorts of assumptions, but the FACT is that it was built as a movie prop and scheduled to be burned at the end of the filming.
A misleading staement followed by another misleading statement does not make up a FACT. The only FACT is that it was built to be in the movie Bounty and was bulit to be longer to fit the film crew and that it was built to meet British Navy specs of the original Bounty.

I am sure in your research of the FACTS that you found course that in the true turn of events that the Bounty was burned in the end. That is was to be burned at the end of the movie doesnt really suprise me as thats what ACTUALLY happened to the Bounty. So again that stement means nothing either. Where are the FACTS that the Bounty replica was less than seaworthy when it was built.

Quote:
The Bounty reached Tahiti on 25 October 1788. She had been at sea for ten months. The crew stayed for five months and lived on the island. They collected 1015 breadfruit plants. The crew were very happy living in Tahiti and Fletcher Christian fell in love with a Tahitian girl named Maimiti. They did not want to have another long journey and go back to England.

Bligh and 18 sailors are left at sea
The Bounty left Tahiti on 4 April 1789, on the way to Jamaica. On 28 April, near the Friendly Islands, Fletcher Christian led the mutiny (take over). Bligh and 18 sailors were left at sea in a small boat, while Christian and the Bounty went back to Tahiti. Christian and a small group of sailors, 11 Tahitian women, and 6 Tahitian men then went to the remote Pitcairn Island. After they arrived they took everything they could from the ship. A sailor called Matthew Quintal, burned and destroyed the Bounty on 23 January 1790
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  #1546  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

The Bounty built in New Zealand (Bounty III) had a steel hull. It had twin turbo diesels with almost twice the power of the engines on the Bounty II. Seems like major differences between the two ships. Can't find specs on Bounty II so don't know if had the same length on deck, beam and draught as the original.
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  #1547  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bloodhunter View Post
The Bounty built in New Zealand (Bounty III) had a steel hull. It had twin turbo diesels with almost twice the power of the engines on the Bounty II. Seems like major differences between the two ships. Can't find specs on Bounty II so don't know if had the same length on deck, beam and draught as the original.
Yes I saw that. Exactley my point. My point was really so was the NZ one.

It looks like it was made well. Much has been made of the the NS made Bounty being made as a movie prop, and on that basis alone many one here continue to ridicule it. On what basis I am not sure as I await one of them to provide expertise or experts stating it was not made to sail. Had restrictions. Tolerances less than say the original Bounty. The danger of the glib statement without fact is that after a while people begin to beleive its a fact. It gets a life of its own. Even some of the most respected posters on Sailnet have refered to it this way.

So who checked out their FACTS brfore posting and ridiculing Bounty as a movie prop?. You would figure that was done before you posted against it, and formed an opinon but there is silence right now as people are scrambling to find some facts to back up what they have been saying all along.

Usually you have the facts before you say something. When you dont and you judge something like because it was used in a movie it was inferior, a prop but you cant prove it....its called a rush to judgement.

Even if you find some mountain of information now and try and interrpret it now it wont change that, as you did it after the fact. Its a thought process.
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  #1548  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Finally we agree on something

Except about the quoted part. Sure, most of the boats and ships before the first world war where sailing boats or ships but there is an huge difference between a steel tall ship from the beginning of the XX century and a XVIII century wooden sailing ship, even if they displace the same. The same can be said between a XVII century sailing ship and a XV century sailing ship and again between one of those and a XII century sailing ship and again the same, regarding that one an a Phoenician trade ship.

They all used sails and have no engine but the safety margins and seaworthiness have been progressively increased and the same with boat/ship speed. Also the conditions where they could be sailed were different.

But regarding sailing ships not even the more modern ones and the more seaworthy where able to sail safely hurricanes. That does not mean that they wouldn't or wont get away with it if they were lucky. If someone plays Russian roulette with a gun and if got lucky he can survive, even several times...but if he keep trying, well, the odds are really bad.

Regards

Paulo
We do agree....I framed it

And this is the best statement of the whole thread and what we should learn from this tradgedy IMHO. Minnie said this early a way back first I beleive.

Quote:
But regarding sailing ships not even the more modern ones and the more seaworthy where able to sail safely hurricanes. That does not mean that they wouldn't or wont get away with it if they were lucky.
For us take out hurricane as the average sailor wont attempt that and substitute a phrase like conditions we arent equiped to handle. The courage to risk may come from beating the situation before may lead to overconfidnce.
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Last edited by chef2sail; 12-20-2012 at 12:16 PM.
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  #1549  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Dave, I'm not going to waste my time with arguments on such foolish statements!

Best Regards
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  #1550  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by lancelot9898 View Post
Dave, I'm not going to waste my time with arguments on such foolish statements!

Best Regards
I understand it was foolish of me to to ask for some kind of proof that the Bounty was actually a poorly made ship.

I mean really now..... you are the one who made the remark " it was a movie prop" implying that it wasnt a serious ship.

I show you a similar replica Bounty built in NZ costing $4,000,000 which in no ones mind will be considered not a serious ship...it was also used to film movies.

I quote the Lunenberg, Nova Scotia site that says it was bulit to Royal Navt specs just longer. You say well " they were gonna burn it".

I point out that they were making a movie and the real HMS Bounty was burned at the end. Seems like those like Brando didnt want to see that happen so they saved it from that.

I ask for proof, real proof that the Bounty made in Lunenberg, NS was not a proper ship and you say
Quote:
I'm not going to waste my time with arguments on such foolish statements!
It is not me making the foolish statement my friend. This is not meant a a person attack, I am just FACT checking your statement.

I am still awaiting proof the original design was less than a seaworth vessel as was implied with the statement made and reiterated by many....
Quote:
she was just a movie prop
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