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  #1551  
Old 12-20-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

The builder of the Replica Bounty built in Lunenberg, NS. Cost $5.7 million dollars in todays money.


Quote:
Builder of HMS Bounty replica saddened by its demise in Hurricane Sandy

7:42 p.m. EST, November 1, 2012|
By Eloísa Ruano González, Orlando Sentinel

MOUNT DORA — Robert Stephens' heart sank when he heard that the replica of the HMS Bounty used in the 1962 Hollywood film "Mutiny on the Bounty" had been lost in rough seas brought by Hurricane Sandy.

Stephens oversaw construction of the three-masted Bounty that Marlon Brando and Trevor Howard sailed to Tahiti in the film. But the ship, which appeared in later movies, including the 2006 hit "Pirates of the Caribbean II: Dead Man's Chest" with Johnny Depp, foundered 90 miles southeast of the North Carolina coast earlier this week.


"It's really sad," said Stephens, 87. "It was a big thing in my life."

Stephens, who has lived in Mount Dora for 26 years and continues to work on restoring antique boats and cars, is optimistic it won't be the end for the Bounty.

"I bet you they're going to raise that baby. It just filled up with water and sank," he said while standing in his shop surrounded by old black-and-white pictures of the construction of the ship. Stephens also has pictures of Brando, Howard and other actors onboard during the filming, which he said brings back great memories.

"It's history," he said.

The original ship's drawings from the British Admiralty were used to build the Bounty in a Nova Scotia shipping yard. Stephens said a lot of "old-timers" who still knew how to build ships out of wood were brought out of retirement.
"We were going to build in California," he said. "But because of the unions, it would have been a tough job to do."

The crew worked around the clock for 11 months to complete the Bounty, Stephens said. The cost: $750,000 — or about $5.7 million in today's dollars.

The replica resembled the original, built in 1787, on the outside. But it was diesel-powered and measured 118 feet in length, about 30 longer than the original.
HMS Bounty Hurricane Sandy: Builder of HMS Bounty replica saddened by its demise in Hurricane Sandy - Orlando Sentinel
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Old 12-20-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
The builder of the Replica Bounty built in Lunenberg, NS. Cost $5.7 million dollars in todays money.



HMS Bounty Hurricane Sandy: Builder of HMS Bounty replica saddened by its demise in Hurricane Sandy - Orlando Sentinel
Chef,
I am not sure of the quality of build or the materials used for the "movie" Bounty. I assume they may have been good when "new" but the ship may have out lived its useful life or was not maintained properly, as recently there seems to have been a lot of rot. Weather the ship had rot when she sank, hopefully the CG report would shed some light.

The question I have is more with the ship design and ballasting. From my understanding the ship was not built to the original Bounty design drawings. Apparently the drawings were obtained, but it is a question if they were actually used. Then the ship's length was increased 30%. This changes everything, was tank testing done on the new design? I could see they needed a bigger ship to hold camera and film crew, and seeing they planned to burn the ship at end of film, probably not concerned with the nautical design. The other question I have was the reballasting of the movie "Bounty". Seems a nautical engineer was involved, but looks like (from CG web page) CG questioned the reballasting, then a letter was provided by Bounty owner and CG was ok with the reballast- but was it really ok?

I hope the CG report on the sinking will address these issues.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Casey I agree. The original build quality is important as it seems to debunk the posters who said it was merely a movie prop. The maintainence will help determine whether it was kept in that condition or allowed to "rot". There have been some damning puctures and reports posted, but no one is positive if these were before shots which were corrected during the many refts.

I am attenpting to go back through the threads as I though one of the designers posted as your point about changing to a larger build is very pertinant.

Dave
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Last edited by chef2sail; 12-20-2012 at 05:41 PM.
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Old 12-20-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

The actual Bounty had about the double of the displacement of the original Bounty.

I think that given that difference in displacement it does not make sense to say that the original plans were followed because the scantlings would have to be different.

If the original scantlings were followed on a ship with a two times the original displacement ...well, then something was very wrong.

Saying this I don't know about the design of this Bounty. I suppose that a naval architect was responsible for that alteration but I never heard nothing about who was or about his competence to do the job.

Anyway I don't see the point in discussing this. Even if the Bounty was a very well built boat, it was still basically a XVIII century designed wooden ship, with limitations that had to do with the 3 centuries old design and the building materials. In any case that boat would not safe sailing an hurricane, so what's the point?

Here are all information about the Bounty and the Bounty replica:

TallShipBounty.org

HMS Bounty, Replica


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bounty_(1960_ship)
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
The actual Bounty had about the double of the displacement of the original Bounty.

I think that given that difference in displacement it does not make sense to say that the original plans were followed because the scantlings would have to be different.

If the original scantlings were followed on a ship with a two times the original displacement ...well, then something was very wrong.

Saying this I don't know about the design of this Bounty. I suppose that a naval architect was responsible for that alteration but I never heard nothing about who was or about his competence to do the job.

Anyway I don't see the point in discussing this. Even if the Bounty was a very well built boat, it was still basically a XVIII century designed wooden ship, with limitations that had to do with the 3 centuries old design and the building materials. In any case that boat would not safe sailing an hurricane, so what's the point?

Here are all information about the Bounty and the Bounty replica:

TallShipBounty.org

HMS Bounty, Replica

HMS Bounty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bounty_(1960_ship)
I agree with what you say.

My post is really to simply answer the posting(s) of those who still want to supply false statements like the Bounty was a movie prop. What happened is aggregious enough with adding in a piece of flase information which may cause some...maybe even a newbie to imagine that they were sailing away in a cardboard model that was to be burned and had no value.

Also the original design was changed. Of course most knwledgeable know that will change the saiing characteristic of the vessel. Thats why I am hoping this is gone over in the inquirey. It may have contributed to making the Bounty unmanageable in some conditions. This would be a good lesson to learn for the futire so this mistake is not made again also. I amstill going through my posts as I distinctly rememebr a gentleman who oposted about righting moments and inspectuions of vessels. He in fact had something to do with testimony on a vessel and was a lifetime naval archetecht.

Dave
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  #1556  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
I agree with what you say.

My post is really to simply answer the posting(s) of those who still want to supply false statements like the Bounty was a movie prop. What happened is aggregious enough with adding in a piece of flase information which may cause some...maybe even a newbie to imagine that they were sailing away in a cardboard model that was to be burned and had no value.

Also the original design was changed. Of course most knwledgeable know that will change the saiing characteristic of the vessel. Thats why I am hoping this is gone over in the inquirey. It may have contributed to making the Bounty unmanageable in some conditions. This would be a good lesson to learn for the futire so this mistake is not made again also. I amstill going through my posts as I distinctly rememebr a gentleman who oposted about righting moments and inspectuions of vessels. He in fact had something to do with testimony on a vessel and was a lifetime naval archetecht.

Dave
Dave,
The person you speak of analized the first Pride. I cannot remeber the name but it is located here in this thread I believe. The analysis was pretty complex and I don't quite follow it all, but what it led to is the Pride II being designed a lot diffierent from the 1st Pride. I believe the CG called for a lot of the changes after the Pride sinking. They raised the free board and changed the ballast as I remember. Note that the first Pride was built to the original design of a Baltimore Clipper. It was originially to be a dockside attraction to stay in the inner harbor. After it was built, it was decide to take her to all parts of the globe.

I think this is it:
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...-and-Stability

Note: read through the entire thread posted above.

Last edited by casey1999; 12-20-2012 at 07:17 PM.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Yeah thats it Casey...thank you

This is it

http://www.cruisingonstrider.us/Treacherous.htm
http://www.cruisingonstrider.us/RightingArms.htm
http://www.cruisingonstrider.us/USCGrules.htm
http://www.cruisingonstrider.us/Metacenter.htm

Is fascinating reasoning to ralize the effect of changing the design andits affect on the boat

I hope the CG inquirey looks into the design change from the original plans and also the reballasting of the keel weights to see if this affected Bountys menuverability or sea motion when under sail or sea state condition.
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Last edited by chef2sail; 12-20-2012 at 08:43 PM.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

A ~90 ft ship (originally) becomes a ~120 ft. ship because it was built from same plans? If built from same plans, it would be ~90 ft. If it is stretched in someway to 120 ft, it's not the same ship. The forces acting at sea on a 90 ft. ship and a 120 ft. ship are different. Therefore, did they hold all the dimensions just the same except put in a 30 ft extension. If designed correctly, it would be a complete redesign, structures thoughout the ship would have to be different to take into consideration the different forces. And it wasn't built like the original one.....there is that stuff about a special deck/platform built in for camera equipment. Back to the Bounties....the last one mentioned (the steel hull one) is so different that it has no relationship other than outward appearance to Walbridge's Bounty. And Walbridge's Bounty was a movie prop, destined to be destroyed as part of the movie process.....now guys, I don't care what it costs, I want the ship for this movie built exactly like the original one, no matter that we are going to burn it when the movie is finished...it's just money after all. And oh yeah, make it a good bit longer so that we'll have more room, and I need special decks below. Also, let's put in some engines, pumps, generators, and lots of other stuff in there.....but be sure to keep it exactly the same as the original, no matter what it costs.

Last edited by NCC320; 12-20-2012 at 11:16 PM.
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Old 12-20-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
Tell us more...
The basic information on the construction of the (1960) Bounty was posted earlier in this thread, more than once, IIRC.

It was built by Smith and Ruhland in Lunenberg, Nova Scotia. S&R had built over 200 largish wooden boats since 1900:
Quote:
Since 1900 the yard has produced wooden fishing vessels of every description. During the heyday of the Banks fishery the yard often produced eight schooners a year employing 50 shipwrights per vessel."
Besides the Bounty, some other well-known S&R boats: the famous fishing/racing schooner Bluenose (1921),
and the schooner Sherman Zwicker (now in the Maine Maritime Museum) the replica of the HMS Rose (used as the HMS Surprise in "Master and Commander, the Far Side of the World"), and the schooner Bluenose II.

In short, they didn't build junk.

It has also been repeatedly speculated that the Bounty was built cheap, because it was going to be filmed being burned at the end of the production, as the original was. The posters making this wildly slandersous speculation ask "Why would they build it right, when they're going to burn it anyway?" We could talk about the likelihood of a world reknowned builder of large wooden boats building an ocean-going vessel on the cheap - and thereby putting lives at risk. We could talk about the FACT that ALL of the availble information about the Bounty's construction states that it was built from the plans of the original, which were still on file in the British Admiralty's archive, but scaled up for filming purposes. We could talk about the fact that she had made SEVERAL ocean crossings over the last 50 years.

You ask why would MGM (not exactly a fly-by-night outfit) build it right? ONE very simple and overriding reason: They only had ONE. They were making Mutiny on the Bounty, after all, and you can't make that movie without the boat. So, does anybody really think they would cut any corners on the construction of a boat that would have to be sailed halfway round the world before they could expose the first frame of the film? They spent three quarters of a million dollars building it, FIFTY years ago. That works out to just shy of $6 million in 2012 dollars. Still think they built it cheap?

Then there was this assertion:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal Paradise
Do you really know that? I'm asking because I really would like to know. I read that it was built by a reputable ship building company.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post
It was. But the company had not built a sailing ship for 80 years!
Wow, Mark, NO idea where you got that. S&R wasn't even FOUNDED until 1900 (twenty years after you said they built their last sailing ship), and built almost nothing but Schooners (well over 100 of them) for the next 40 years, including the Sherman Zwicker in the '42, less than 20 years before the Bounty.

Can we please stop saying "the Bounty was just a prop"?
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Last edited by Brewgyver; 12-20-2012 at 11:03 PM.
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Old 12-21-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCC320 View Post
A ~90 ft ship (originally) becomes a ~120 ft. ship because it was built from same plans? If built from same plans, it would be ~90 ft. If it is stretched in someway to 120 ft, it's not the same ship. The forces acting at sea on a 90 ft. ship and a 120 ft. ship are different. Therefore, did they hold all the dimensions just the same except put in a 30 ft extension. If designed correctly, it would be a complete redesign, structures thoughout the ship would have to be different to take into consideration the different forces. And it wasn't built like the original one.....there is that stuff about a special deck/platform built in for camera equipment.

Back to the Bounties....the last one mentioned (the steel hull one) is so different that it has no relationship other than outward appearance to Walbridge's Bounty.

And Walbridge's Bounty was a movie prop, destined to be destroyed as part of the movie process.....now guys, I don't care what it costs, I want the ship for this movie built exactly like the original one, no matter that we are going to burn it when the movie is finished...it's just money after all. And oh yeah, make it a good bit longer so that we'll have more room, and I need special decks below. Also, let's put in some engines, pumps, generators, and lots of other stuff in there.....but be sure to keep it exactly the same as the original, no matter what it costs.
Quote:
This boat was built as a movie prop. It is likely that the investors didn't build the boat to the same standards as a real sea-going ship...the original, even though is was built in another day, was likely more seaworthy.-NCC320 post 44
Well at least you are consistantly wrong on your posts. Would you care to show us the facts for these hypethetical assertions. Most have moved away from that assertion as in the rush to judge it was one of those statements s after careful inspection which isnt accurate

Quote:
120 ft. ship because it was built from same plans? If built from same plans, it would be ~90 ft. If it is stretched in someway to 120 ft, it's not the same ship. The forces acting at sea on a 90 ft. ship and a 120 ft. ship are different. Therefore, did they hold all the dimensions just the same except put in a 30 ft extension. If designed correctly, it would be a complete redesign, structures thoughout the ship would have to be different to take into consideration the different forces.
How do you know it wasnt redesigned. The people who built this are not the dunderheads you make them out to be. They are professional boatbuliders. And your qualifications to make this assumption are?
Quote:
This boat was built as a movie prop
Show me other from a professional that it was called a movie prop. All I have seen are ametuer sleuths calling it that. This statement is a purjoritive adjective you and a few others hae appllied which makes it seem like it was less than and conjures up substandard construction. All FACTS presented seem to show the opposite. Where do you get your nformation?
Quote:
And Walbridge's Bounty was a movie prop, destined to be destroyed as part of the movie process
Yes we know why though, thestory is the at the end the Bounty in real life was burned. Not because it was built well, ad their is no evidence it was built less than because it was going to be burned. If you have some show us. In fact the reports are from the buliders and designers as wll as some posters on here it was built incredibly accurately and well.

My only concern is that the righting factor was changed and due dilligence was performed when the made the design changes. The inquirey will tell us this.

Maintainence is another story here and needs to be investigater by the authorities.

Unless you can supply us with concrete data and facts about what you said we will have to assume it was a boat built to be used in a movie, AT SEA to standards, by a reputable bulider with a professional designer?

We wll await your proof.
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Last edited by chef2sail; 12-21-2012 at 12:45 AM.
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