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  #1561  
Old 12-21-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

It is interesting that every dimension of Bounty II was significantly larger that that of the original except the draught which was about 14 feet for each vessel. I could make all sorts of guesses as to what this could mean to the stability of the ship but not being a marine architect, they wouldn't be worth much. Would like to an analysis of this from someone qualified to make it.
Also did not see in the specs whether the masts on BountyII were taller than those on the original. Anyone know?
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Old 12-21-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bloodhunter View Post
Also did not see in the specs whether the masts on BountyII were taller than those on the original. Anyone know?
They would have been sized to fit in the camera lens. Panavision, probably but theres a variety of widths used.

You know how when you take a photo of a sailing boat you either get a nice close up of the folks in the cockpit, but cant fit the mast in the frame, unless you turn the camera on its side. Well, obviously you cant turn the cinema on its side whenever the Bounty comes into view. So the masts need to be the right ratio to the boat to fit the lens.... And make it look nice!
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Last edited by MarkofSeaLife; 12-21-2012 at 08:55 AM.
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Old 12-21-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Or ...
(Sorry i couldnt get both photos to upload in the same post.)
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Old 12-21-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Bounty comparisons

TallShipBounty.org
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Sorry, Chef and others....

It was a movie prop, maybe a good one, but neverless a movie prop. And if it was significantly longer, wider, heavier, with about the same draft as the original as has been reported, it is a different vessel even though it might look similar and the original Bounty plans served as a reference basis for it's design.

Regarding movie props, did you ever visit the production lot of a movie producer...blocks of buildings that are really just fronts with no backs, and often painted to look like stone construction? Just a little common sense would tell you that movie houses, even MGM, would watch the investment. But Bounty was a ship, therefore they wouldn't mind costs so much...? That it may have been built by well known shipbuilders with a history of building wooden vessels is not surprising; it was after all not the cardboard and toilet paper thing that Chef alluded to earlier. For the builder, there was money to be made in building this prop, which required specialized skills that few yards have today/or had in 1960. And there was the publicity value of being awarded the job. From movie makers standpoint, even if it was a prop, it had to be sufficiently capable of getting the job done, so they might prefer someone experienced in the field. Builders will generally adhere closely to the plans provided when they build something.....so what goes into the ship would have been determined by the naval architects or engineers.

Chef....your question of what makes me qualified to speak.....you really don't want to go there. Can you answer the same question as it pertains to you?
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Old 12-21-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCC320 View Post
Sorry, Chef and others....

It was a movie prop, maybe a good one, but neverless a movie prop. ........so what goes into the ship would have been determined by the naval architects or engineers.
Yes, I have said already that long ago. Movie's producers works on tight budgets and even if I don't think that comparison with "blocks of buildings that are really just fronts with no backs" is accurate. The boat had to be sailed thousands of miles before reaching the movie scenery and if the boat sunk in the way it would make for a huge loss regarding movie budget.

Anyway MGM had to be incompetent in what regards money if they had demanded to the NA that modified the plans, to use the same scantlings that were used on the original boat, taking into account the double of the displacement. The boat was, according with MGM plans, to last only the movie and be burned (as part of the original moviescript) in the end of it.

Even if built adequate to sailing with good weather till Tahiti, there was no need to design it to be able to sustain many storms and a long working life on the sea.

Doing so it would only be a waste of money and would show incompetence from the MGM production in what regards managing budgets. It is possible but very uniquely.

Regarding the boat being build in a reputable shipyard and there, the better they could according the plans, what I have heard and see leave me to believe that it was so, but that is not the point.

They had built accordingly with the plans that were not the original ones, (that were for a boat with half the displacement) but others made by a NA, taking as guide the original plans, but obviously different since the boat was much longer, wider and displaced the double.

The answer regarding if the boat was constructed as a movie prop or as a working boat destined to have a long life will reside on the plans that I don't know and if I did know, would not probably be able to say. But they are probably still around, as the original Bounty plans and any NA specialized in that area will be able to answer that.

I don't know if the CG will be looking at that or not. As I have said, it is not pertinent to the main cause of the accident, since even a XX century steel ship would not be adequate to sail an Hurricane.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCC320 View Post
...

Chef....your question of what makes me qualified to speak.....you really don't want to go there. Can you answer the same question as it pertains to you?
I don't know if you are making it intentionally or not, but you are using the same intimidation techniques that others have used in this thread. Since you have referred a special qualification to access this matter, please tell what it is. Not being rude, but if someone says he knows better based on his qualifications, it seems to me it should say why

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 12-21-2012 at 11:46 AM.
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Old 12-21-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

[quote=NCC320;965180]Sorry, Chef and others....

It was a movie prop, maybe a good one, but neverless a movie prop. And if it was significantly longer, wider, heavier, with about the same draft as the original as has been reported, it is a different vessel even though it might look similar and the original Bounty plans served as a reference basis for it's design.

Regarding movie props, did you ever visit the production lot of a movie producer...blocks of buildings that are really just fronts with no backs, and often painted to look like stone construction? Just a little common sense would tell you that movie houses, even MGM, would watch the investment. But Bounty was a ship, therefore they wouldn't mind costs so much...? That it may have been built by well known shipbuilders with a history of building wooden vessels is not surprising; it was after all not the cardboard and toilet paper thing that Chef alluded to earlier. For the builder, there was money to be made in building this prop, which required specialized skills that few yards have today/or had in 1960. And there was the publicity value of being awarded the job. From movie makers standpoint, even if it was a prop, it had to be sufficiently capable of getting the job done, so they might prefer someone experienced in the field. Builders will generally adhere closely to the plans provided when they build something.....so what goes into the ship would have been determined by the naval architects or engineers.
Chef....your question of what makes me qualified to speak.....you really don't want to go there. Can you answer the same question as it pertains to you?[/
QUOTE]

Quote:
Regarding movie props, did you ever visit the production lot of a movie producer...blocks of buildings that are really just fronts with no backs, and often painted to look like stone construction?
Yes I have been to movie sets in Hollywood and also in New York and Baltimore. Why would you make this statement though unless you wanted to mislead people on the Bounty construction After all you dispute what you are saying below .
Quote:
That it may have been built by well known shipbuilders with a history of building wooden vessels is not surprising; it was after all not the cardboard and toilet paper thing that Chef alluded to earlier.
Quote:
Chef....your question of what makes me qualified to speak.....you really don't want to go there. Can you answer the same question as it pertains to you
I am not making sweeping statements saying they are fact without proof you are. In fact I keep saying I am willing to wait until the EXPERTS on naval design and archetecture as well as the experts on naval ship building weigh in. We already have quotes from the chief builder of the Bounty which directly dispute everything you have posted.

I notice that you still have yet to post a fact....from a source. You continue to dance around that. Your posts still are just your opinion not fact which of course you are entitled to. I have no opinion on this other than to mention that the facts I have seen lead me to conclude your opinion has no factual basis. I am willing to withhold judgement on to the fact whether the Bounty was constructed soley as a movie prop or was truly built to authentic specs.
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  #1568  
Old 12-21-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I don't know if the CG will be looking at that or not. As I have said, it is not pertinent to the main cause of the accident, since even a XX century steel ship would not be adequate to sail an Hurricane.

Regards

Paulo
I agree. I dont think I or anyone is saying that it was made or should sail into a hurricane. We all argree with you here that sailing into a hurricane is not a prudent thing.

I would hope the CG looks into the specific design characteristics of the Bounty for a couple of reasons.

One- IMHO there probably are other TS out there also who may have modified original drawings, and since we all agree that that could alter the sailing characteristics, righting moments etc, what has to be done to recertify them or what is done to retest their stability. What was done for the Bounty when they built it larger and modified the weight it carried in the keel? For all we know this was an accident waiting to happen ( not talking about sailing into a hurricane).
This could be one of the side lessons we could learn from this tradgedy and maybe other TS need to be looked at again if modifications were made.


Two- This goes to the tolerances issue which I have presented earlier. Maybe the design characateric change would say this ship should sail in anything but seas 10 ft or less, or in winds of 30 or less. I beleive theior is a distinct rating by insurance ( LLoyds I beleive) and others of ocean going ability ( I am no expert in this, but know it occurs). I think it based on tolerances, design and other criteria

Again this could be one of the side lessons we could learn from this tradgedy and maybe other TS tolerances need to be looked at

I know this may not be your issues here, and its not to take away or explain the hurricane issue, but as you have said there should be no censoring of ideas and I would like to see this addressed as a possible outcome of this investigation.

The results may prevent future incidents in heavier weather than normal which any of these ships could encounter in sailing from port to port as the sea can be unpredictable as we know.

Dave
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  #1569  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post

I don't know if you are making it intentionally or not, but you are using the same intimidation techniques that others have used in this thread.
Paulo,

Actually, it was intentional and directed to the person who challenged me. If one challenges, expect to be challenged. As to special qualifications, I am just saying that in such matters, an engineer (retired) probably knows more than a chef* as to structural and design issues....neither being qualified in the sense of being a naval architect. You, me, and everyone else has a right to express their opinion on a open public forum like this.

Not sure if it bothers others, but I don't like to see posters put down because of their opinions, nor intimidated with personal attacks, or have what they posted distorted. I, for one, will not be intimidated, and if one tries, they should expect to receive the same treatment in return. If you will note, my issues are with a particular poster who, in my opinion, distorts what people have said, must always get the last say, and failing that, issues personal attacks against people.

We are all different individuals with different backgrounds, so our positions on any question are likely to be different. That's ok, it's an open discussion. But opposing views shouldn't be mistated, overstated, or posters intimidated. I'll try to be respectful when expressing my ideas, and hope others will do likewise.

Along that line, I noticed a certain retired naval architect that posted earlier on one of these threads was challenged in a mean way by that same poster, only now, we find out (in recent postings by others) that he not only knows the field, but has done extensive work into the stability of such vessels, and we are seeing his documentation. So, we, me included, need to be careful when we challenge someone.

I apoligize to the forum if my posts have been distracting in anyway, but I don't like it when I am attacked, nor when I see others attacked unjustly or misquoted, or putdown. The nonsense about a cardboard ship with toilet paper sails is an example...who ever said that? And Mantus being challenged? And a 16 year old newby desperate for advice in advance of hurricane being put down? And many more.

* Culinary Administrator w/ Political Science and Psychology Degrees....a correction
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Last edited by NCC320; 12-21-2012 at 05:07 PM.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

I'm going to say this entire discussion of is Bounty more or less a movie prop is kind of ridiculous, and somewhat besides the point.

The answer is that knowledge is not easily accessible. As far as I can tell, the only reason we have specs on the original was because of what Captain Bligh wrote in his journal. There may or may not be actual plans floating around, but I don't know. I have a friend that may be able to give me more answers regarding stability etc as he researches maritime disaster for a living.

Speaking of, and something for you all to chew over for the weekend. My friend sent out a FOIA request to the USCG for all of their inspection and COI documents. When looking this over, as it will take some time, please know that the main reason Bounty received COIs so frequently is because each time she visited a port as an "attraction vessel," that is, as offering dockside tours, she was boarded and an inspection made. For attraction vessels, the USCG primarily looks for multiple boarding/exiting gangways, fire and evac plans, and how many people are required to "man" each deck, etc. (for more info, check out page 422 of this pdf (http://www.uscg.mil/directives/cim/1...M_16000_7A.pdf). Now that I think of it, the first museum I worked for was considered an attraction vessel and had a COI. We were required to have a minimum of one person on the weather, 2nd deck, and one person on the 3rd and 4th decks, also multiple fire extinguishers, water hoses and hookups, and designated entrance/exit gangways. Plus we frequently ran fire and evacuation drills (we had overnight programs, and would run these drills when new students arrived).

Really, before you start fighting and calling names, please check with me if you have any questions about these documents and I will consult with my friend. Never have I seen such silly, nitpicky, fights among what I respected as grown adults. Hence my radio silence.

So, onto the fun stuff:
The USCG has an "information exchange" and one can search just about any vessel that has been involved in an incident or had a COI. I spent a couple hours last night looking up my former ships. This is Bounty's page https://psix.uscg.mil/PSIX/PSIXDetai...esselID=345399.

Also, if you haven't seen this, this is eerily similar to the recent events. http://www.sptimes.com/SouthPinellas...rly_sinks.html

Last edited by sparklepl3nty; 12-21-2012 at 03:03 PM.
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