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  #1571  
Old 12-21-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Both the documents you have posted have been posted already on this thread, The one with the inspections by someone from the Bounty organization to show that the boat had been inspected frequently.

I asked if those inspections were made regarding the boat being a dock attractions or if not to what those inspections refer. I am still waiting for the answer.

Regarding the 1998 incident, that as I said was already posted an discussed here, even if something similar may have happen it is good to remember that the condition of the vessel in 2012 had nothing with its condition in 1998. The ship had been completely remade.

However, as I have pointed earlier, it seems to me that a contributing cause can have been the abandon of the diesel pumping system as the main system and his substitution for a not independent system (hydraulic) run directly by the engines.

In fact it was not made yet clear what was now the main pumping system: the electric one or the hydraulic one? and what was the back up system.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 12-21-2012 at 05:07 PM.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Both the documents you have posted have been posted already on this thread, The one with the inspections by someone from the Bounty organization to show that the boat had been inspected frequently.

I asked if those inspections were made regarding the boat being a dock attractions or if not to what those inspections refer. I am still waiting for the answer.

Regarding the 1998 incident, that has I said was posted an discussed here, even if something similar may have happen it is good to remember that the condition of the vessel in 2012 had nothing with its condition in 1998. The ship had been completely remade.
My apologies that they were already posted. I only looked back to about mid-November and might have missed that discussion.

As I said, those inspections were all made as a dockside attraction vessel. In all reality, they are not thorough enough to call a vessel "inspected frequently," implying that they were the same inspections as a vessel under subchapter T or R would have to go through. Really, they were not much more than a fire marshal inspection of a building.

I would not call the 1998/2012 differences completely remade. There was still much that was to be desired, that fact I know from discussion over the last couple years with crew (mostly those who crewed in 2007-2010).

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
However, as I have pointed earlier, it seems to me that a contributing cause can have been the abandon of the diesel pumping system as the main system and his substitution for a not independent system (hydraulic) run directly by the engines.

In fact it was not made yet clear what was now the main pumping system: the electric one or the hydraulic one? and what was the back up system.
That I don't know the answer to. I do wonder why hand pumps were never installed on her, especially with her familiarity with water in and outside the boat. In all my years on every other boat, anything but the "boards wet" was cause of concern. On the other hand, the owner was quoted:

"At that time it wasn't considered an emergency, even though they had several feet of water inside the boat," Hansen said. "She's a very large ship, and that little bit of water really does not do anything to her." Sandy claims 'Bounty' off North Carolina - CNN.com

Now imagine, hundreds of gallons of water sloshing around a hull with no watertight compartments, and even with perfectly working engines, and pumps primed and high enough away from the water, you're still going to be screwed.
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  #1573  
Old 12-21-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCC320 View Post
Paulo,

Actually, it was intentional and directed to the person who challenged me. If one challenges, expect to be challenged. As to special qualifications, I am just saying that in such matters, an engineer (retired) probably knows more than a chef as to structural and design issues....neither being qualified in the sense of being a naval architect. You, me, and everyone else has a right to express their opinion on a open public forum like this.

Not sure if it bothers others, but I don't like to see posters put down because of their opinions, nor intimidated with personal attacks, or have what they posted distorted. I, for one, will not be intimidated, and if one tries, they should expect to receive the same treatment in return. If you will note, my issues are with a particular poster who, in my opinion, distorts what people have said, must always get the last say, and failing that, issues personal attacks against people.

We are all different individuals with different backgrounds, so our positions on any question are likely to be different. That's ok, it's an open discussion. But opposing views shouldn't be mistated, overstated, or posters intimidated. I'll try to be respectful when expressing my ideas, and hope others will do likewise.

Along that line, I noticed a certain retired naval architect that posted earlier on one of these threads was challenged in a mean way by that same poster, only now, we find out (in recent postings by others) that he not only knows the field, but has done extensive work into the stability of such vessels, and we are seeing his documentation. So, we, me included, need to be careful when we challenge someone.

I apoligize to the forum if my posts have been distracting in anyway, but I don't like it when I am attacked, nor when I see others attacked unjustly or misquoted, or putdown. The nonsense about a cardboard ship with toilet paper sails is an example...who ever said that? And Mantus being challenged? And a 16 year old newby desperate for advice in advance of hurricane being put down? And many more.
Quote:
Quote:
but I don't like it when I am attacked, nor when I see others attacked unjustly or misquoted, or putdown. The nonsense about a cardboard ship with toilet paper sails is an example...who ever said that-NC320
Isnt this what you are doing. My statement about the cardboard posters et all was not directed at you personally, but was an opinion. But now you turn it into a personal attack on me, just what you claim to abhor.

Quote:
Quote:
I apoligize to the forum if my posts have been distracting in anyway, but I don't like it when I am attacked, nor when I see others attacked unjustly or misquoted, or putdown- NC320
then you go and do exactly that
Quote:
Quote:
As to special qualifications, I am just saying that in such matters, an engineer (retired) probably knows more than a chef as to structural and design issues....neither being qualified in the sense of being a naval architect.NC320
Another one of your assumptions. I have a BA in Political Science, a BA in Psychology and an MA in Political Science not that it means I am any more qualified than a chef. I currently am in charge of operations totalling44 Million dollars. This statement
Quote:
an engineer (retired) [B]probably knows more than a chef

in an area of neither ones expertise on its own is just what you said you werent about a put down and a misquote

In its own way its a perjoritive statement, an example of a sterotyping and elitist thinking and insight into your character. I will be sure I forward to a few of my chef friends on the forum. one who is opne of my best friends T37chef as maybe they would care to know they are considered less than engineers. How sad a statement. Please confine your remarks to the statements of facts and not to me or what I do. When we see people do this its because they really dont have an argument and just strike out so I understand why. Again...where are your facts.
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  #1574  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCC320 View Post
As to special qualifications, I am just saying that in such matters, an engineer (retired) probably knows more than a chef as to structural and design issues....neither being qualified in the sense of being a naval architect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Another one of your assumptions. I have a BA in Political Science, a BA in Psychology and an MA in Political Science not that it means I am any more qualified than a chef. I currently am in charge of operations totalling44 Million dollars..
In its own way its a perjoritive statement, an example of a sterotyping and elitist thinking and insight into your character. I will be sure I forward to a few of my chef friends on the forum. one who is opne of my best friends T37chef as maybe they would care to know they are considered less than engineers. How sad a statement.
Oh for god's effing sake, grow a pair, Chef!
He was referring to his own understanding of "structural and design issues" and that as an engineer probably knew more than a chef ABOUT said issues. He NEVER said chefs were lesser than engineers, merely that they were more knowledgeable about structure and design.

If you want something to confuse you, one of my most esteemed colleagues is both trained as a chef and an engineer, and killer at both.. but I would never say he was smarter than the both of you. In part because I know nothing more than your statements and what information you have provided on Sailnet.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sparklepl3nty View Post
Oh for god's effing sake, grow a pair, Chef!
He was referring to his own understanding of "structural and design issues" and that as an engineer probably knew more than a chef ABOUT said issues. He NEVER said chefs were lesser than engineers, merely that they were more knowledgeable about structure and design.

.
In a vacum that may be correct, but he has done this in other posts also and he also assumed I was a chef...which I am not.
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Last edited by chef2sail; 12-21-2012 at 05:11 PM.
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  #1576  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sparklepl3nty View Post
My apologies that they were already posted. I only looked back to about mid-November and might have missed that discussion.

As I said, those inspections were all made as a dockside attraction vessel. In all reality, they are not thorough enough to call a vessel "inspected frequently," implying that they were the same inspections as a vessel under subchapter T or R would have to go through. Really, they were not much more than a fire marshal inspection of a building.

I would not call the 1998/2012 differences completely remade. There was still much that was to be desired, that fact I know from discussion over the last couple years with crew (mostly those who crewed in 2007-2010).



That I don't know the answer to. I do wonder why hand pumps were never installed on her, especially with her familiarity with water in and outside the boat. In all my years on every other boat, anything but the "boards wet" was cause of concern. On the other hand, the owner was quoted:

"At that time it wasn't considered an emergency, even though they had several feet of water inside the boat," Hansen said. "She's a very large ship, and that little bit of water really does not do anything to her." Sandy claims 'Bounty' off North Carolina - CNN.com

Now imagine, hundreds of gallons of water sloshing around a hull with no watertight compartments, and even with perfectly working engines, and pumps primed and high enough away from the water, you're still going to be screwed.
Again thank you for your continued posting

Do you know if there are any additional inspections during the building/ design phase when the plans are modified to increase the size or lessen the weight carried in the keel like happened on the Bounty. I ask as when I modify my house I must go back to the zoning board with the plan modification?

Do you know of the Bounty practiced emergency procedures. Were the perfunctory and done just because they were required or did they beleive in them?

On the vessel you sail on What type of emergency procedures are practiced? I saw what you posted, I amreferring to underway....like MOB or abandon ship procedures. How is that handled?
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Last edited by chef2sail; 12-21-2012 at 05:09 PM.
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  #1577  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sparklepl3nty View Post
....

That I don't know the answer to. I do wonder why hand pumps were never installed on her, especially with her familiarity with water in and outside the boat. In all my years on every other boat, anything but the "boards wet" was cause of concern. On the other hand, the owner was quoted:

"At that time it wasn't considered an emergency, even though they had several feet of water inside the boat," Hansen said. "She's a very large ship, and that little bit of water really does not do anything to her." Sandy claims 'Bounty' off North Carolina - CNN.com

Now imagine, hundreds of gallons of water sloshing around a hull with no watertight compartments, and even with perfectly working engines, and pumps primed and high enough away from the water, you're still going to be screwed.
There is nothing to apologize.

There are some photos that were posted on another forum that shows a very vulnerable electric installation precisely to that kind of water sloshing around.

Even if the generators were working, if the system was shorted below, the electric pumps would not work anymore.

That electric pump system was the back up system back in 1998 and failed exactly because "the wires got wet" so it should be evident that was a vulnerable system. The boat was in trouble in 1998 precisely because the main diesel pump(s) failed.

It seems that Diesel autonomous main pump system was replaced by Hydraulic pumps directly connected to the engines, a non autonomous system that would fail when the engines went out of order.

It was known that the boat made water. The director of the shipyard were the boat was repaired stated that. In those conditions a reliable autonomous pump system with one or more back ups would be essential for boat safety.

I have many doubts about the installed pumping systems, their reliability and their autonomy regarding other boat systems.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 12-21-2012 at 05:33 PM.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Do you know if there are any additional inspections during the building/ design phase when the plans are modified to increase the size or lessen the weight carried in the keel like happened on the Bounty. I ask as when I modify my house I must go back to the zoning board with the plan modification?
I don't know what kind of inspections occurred regarding the size changes. Because she came from a reputable boatyard I imagine they would account for it, no matter if she was going to sail for only a couple months of filming or decades. I imagine there would be something from the shipyard/designers, but as to any inspection by the USCG.. it would not be necessary (there were no plans to use her elsewhere). Maybe an inspection by a surveyor?
I do know when an inspected boat changes anything, be they sail plan, rig changes, tonnage, etc, they have to have the plans ok'd and inspected by the USCG.

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Do you know of the Bounty practiced emergency procedures. Were the perfunctory and done just because they were required or did they beleive in them?
Anything I would answer you with would be speculation. However, I believe that safety is a culture, not just a practice, as you refer to it as "believe in them [emergency procedures]." From what I've seen and heard, I do not believe that Bounty may have had as strong a "culture" as other vessels. There are two YouTube videos which you may or may not have seen that show this.

My critiques are: in the first video, they are hove-to, but there is no one at or near the helm, with the exception of the videographer. Whenever I've been hove-to or even anchored on other vessels, we've always had some sort of watch, usually two but sometimes one, depending on the weather. What would happen if the sails split and everyone else is asleep or eating dinner? Plus, the hatches are wide open. With that much wind, and 18' seas as the poster points out, those hatches should be closed in case of any knock down.

In the second video, it takes far too long for crew to climb aloft and furl that course. Giving the benefit of a doubt, if the first person to climb was green, and still slow climbing aloft, s/he should be last to climb or remain on deck. Two weeks after joining my first ship, our main topsail blew. The mate kept all of us newer crew on deck so that the nimble and more secure older hands could furl away. Secondly, no one looks like they are clipped in (if I think way back in my memory I remember that most of the yards had a single line stretched from yard arm to yard arm for crew to clip in, when the standard is a 1/2-1" steel bar attached every 2-3' to the top of the yard directly). Crew are constantly saying questions like "should I coil this?" when they should know the answer beyond a shadow of a doubt. Finally, it takes them ten minutes to furl, and they don't even finish it because the topmast gives way(!). On a properly trained ship, and even with a heavy sail like the course, ten minutes should be fine to "harbor furl," or make it look perfect for the public. In bad weather, they would "sea stow" the sail, and it shouldn't take more than a few minutes.

Going back to my safety culture argument, I remember in 2008 a friend of mine was nearly killed when the line they were using to step a topmast parted. He had just guided in the pin to keep the topmast stepped or his head would've..

On the other hand, I know they had fire, MOB, and abandon ship drills. They obviously also had gumby suits, something not even all the other TallShips carry.


Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
On the vessel you sail on What type of emergency procedures are practiced? I saw what you posted, I amreferring to underway....like MOB or abandon ship procedures. How is that handled?
On 95% of every vessel I've sailed on (a dozen or so?), we've had drills at least once a month, and whenever new crew joined. For those of us that took passengers overnight, we had drills and discussions of the station bill (every permanent crew had a specific job/s to do, and there were overlaps). Of course, sometimes the safety drill doesn't become a culture.. during my first MOB drill as mate on a motored dinner cruise boat, I ran to the back deck with my station bill required gear, and found one of the other crew smoking. He had not even noticed our MOB buoy pass by, and ignored the MOB drill calls on the PA system. I cracked down on him pretty hard, and took away his "senior deckhand" privileges for several weeks.

While underway, we'd often have some sort of drills.. my most memorable was several years ago on a flat calm day motoring in the South Pacific. the captain quietly asked me to don a life jacket and grab a VHF, and jump overboard. Of our 8 crew, only he and the cook (who had been aboard 8 months, as long as I had) knew the plan. So I quietly jumped over, and watched in a quasi-terror as the boat immediately sounded the alarms, threw overboard life rings, and turned round. The conditions were perfect for such an event, but it is still nerve-wracking to see a boat only turn around at your horizon, and see how far away that appears. I later found I was only in the water for a few minutes, but it felt like an eternity.

The idea, I'm sure you know, is that if drills happen often enough, they will become like muscle memory, and even in a panicked state, we will do what we were trained to do.
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Old 12-21-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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They would have been sized to fit in the camera lens. (snippage)
Another assumption, based on...

right, nothing.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Straight from the horse's mouth: Bounty ship sinking: HMS Bounty builder Robert Stephens anxiously waits for hearings on the ship's sinking - OrlandoSentinel.com

The USCG will be having their hearing on the sinking mid-February, and already I know a number of crew will be heading thataway to speak at the hearing.
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