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HMS Bounty in trouble...

278K views 2K replies 105 participants last post by  PCP 
#1 ·
The HMS Bounty is a tall ship that was built in Nova Scotia in 1961 for the MGM movie "Mutiny on the Bounty", starring Marlon Brando...she appears to be in trouble from Hurricane Sandy.

From ABC News:
2:55 AM EDT: Coast Guard spokesman David Weydert tells ABC News, "The Coast Guard received notification that the sailing vessel HMS Bounty was in distress. We responded by sending out a C-130 aircraft and we're currently monitoring the situation."

And the ships website confirms she is in harms way:
TallShipBounty.org

I sure hope this story has a happy ending.
 
#885 ·
Other than for trivial value to know about her final hours, I don't see how that information will shed any light on this tragedy. I would like to see the results of their interviews on the departure decision.
For the same reason in your industry they reconstruct the final minutes of an airplane crash. There could be things which should have been inspected or design flaws which became apparent. Maybe there will be an enlightenment as to why they chose not to seek shelter as they sailed down the coast. These need to come out in the inquirey as maybe there will be a tightening of inspection. Why did the pumps fail? What about the backups. etc.

Actually I dont really care why they left, unless they were forced to by the company or the port master. It has already been determined here that the Captain is at fault for leaving. Why each of the 15 crew members individual decisions why they left is for soap operas or some future movie. I am sure their individual lawyers have prepped them well what to say by now.
 
#887 ·
....Why each of the 15 crew members individual decisions why they left is for soap operas or some future movie. I am sure their individual lawyers have prepped them well what to say by now.
The USCG would have interviewed them as they returned to land, so I doubt they were lawyered up already.

The scenario, however, is the learnng opportunity in my opinion. Why did they go, why did they agree, we're they fully processing the danger, etc. None will change ultimate responsibility, but will allow others to see it coming.

If poor maintenance ultimately caused the pump to fail, it won't impact the responsibility or teach anything about why they should not have found themselves exposed to that failure or expose the USCG to have to rescue them in those conditions.
 
#889 ·
Oh, I've tried to avoid a prolonged discussion over how the NTSB investigates aircraft accidents. Most are aware of the high profile investigations, where the NTSB has near actors and actresses as spokespeople. However, many investigations simply end in "pilot error" or assign a most likely cause, since there may not be anyone to interview. Something to the effect of "pilot failed to maintain control of aircraft". No kidding. Official investigations are not necessarily the end all. I will say, what they can learn from wreckage is amazing.
 
#891 ·
My father, a marine diesel mechanic (who is much more qualified to be the engineer on that ship than the actual "engineer" was) suspects it was the first real weather they'd been in in a long time. The waves stirred their tanks and clogged their fuel filters, which killed the generator and engines. After that it isn't long until the pump uses up whatever battery power they have left. Pump may have even been clogged by stuff in the bilge that got stirred up by the waves.

Probably could've saved the ship with a couple fuel filter changes.
 
#892 · (Edited)
The waves stirred their tanks and clogged their fuel filters, which killed the generator and engines. ...

Probably could've saved the ship with a couple fuel filter changes.
They still would have come a cropper. The channel they were heading for was 4 meters deep with 10 meter waves. metric or imperial those figures done work.

.. That turned out to be an astoundingly poor decision. If he had simply laid a course for the NE Providence Channel, and after only a few more hours of sailing, he could have tucked in behind Hole in the Wall, for instance, for a bit of rest...
Finally a portion of a post of yours i agree with. :)
It was only an extra 30 nms to go to be protected for the waves, that's what was making them sick.
I made the suggestion on some forum at the time, but no one seemed to see how significant it was. 30 miles to safety, but a seasick crew, added to tiredness fuzzed up their brains.

Of course nothing to do with paper charts or ECN. A fool using either will get into strife.

Mark
 
#893 · (Edited)
All of us that were used to navigate at night without a plotter know that today we do navigation at night with a plotter that would not have attempted without one-PCP.
No my friend not ALL of us do that. That is highly risky and quite frankly sets a bad example for any newbie here. You and others have intimated that chartplotters are not accurate. In fact you related an experience about a rock with your wife, that only sight or chart reconning would identify.

Why would you
do navigation at night with a plotter that would not have attempted without one
when it is not accurate. Why would you risk you life, the people with you and your boat doing something at night using a piece of equipemnt you do not trust and has shown to be inaccurate by your own eyes? Why would you go ANYWHERE at night you couldnt wouldnt attempt without the chartplotter?

You are confusing, on one hand you point out we rely on the chartplotters and shouldnt, then on the other hand state you go places at night you wouldnt have attempted without a chartplotter. ( Isnt this waht JOn is claiming the Captain Ross did)

Our modern sophisticated chartplotter is and aide to navigating not the navigator. I would go no where, at night or in the day that I would put at risk my safety if the chartplotter was wrong or it failed while using. I do NOT trust it by itself implicitly

Captain Ross tuned away from the Rally in daylight,
Captain Ross headed for the North Bar Channel in daylight,
Captian Ross was warned by Rally organizers not to go on there,
Captain Ross chose to come in this entrance vs heaving to or taking a different passage which was more protected.
Captain Ross CHOSE to enter the Rage area in daylight ( sound familiar with sailing into a hurricane)

He had made his decision and he was going to carry it through. He had eschewed all information and recommendations from others, he violated a number of common sense rules like coming in an unfamiliar inlet at night ( chartplotter or not), as well as sailing directly into a rage, as well as heading for shallow rougher water ( like Hatteras) in the midst of 50 knott wibnds and opposing current and sea. It is the human who is at fault.

Originally Posted by JonEisberg
.. That turned out to be an astoundingly poor decision. If he had simply laid a course for the NE Providence Channel, and after only a few more hours of sailing, he could have tucked in behind Hole in the Wall, for instance, for a bit of rest...
So true, you are 100% right here. The chartplotter didnt coerce or enable him to choose the North Channel He screwed up, 30 more miles as Mark and you have said hed have been in less wave action and easier seas. He made the wrong choice..he headed for the North Channel....kind of like Captain Walbridge did...he headed into danger instead of away from it.
 
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#896 ·
I am not sure if I understand you but anyway what you say makes no sense. I don't know if you used to navigate at night without a plotter and if you would do so I don't understand what is your doubt. As I hope you know navigation without a plotter use triangulation and azimuths to find your position in a chart.

At night many times you simply lack references to get a good fix and even navigation lights on the shore can be difficult to sort out from the middle of other lights and that could on coastal navigation make things difficult if you have to avoid some rocks or any other obstacles. Sometimes the precision you could get sometimes regarding your position was rather poor and I am talking about several miles. That could make things dangerous and therefore it would be better to wait for day light.

With a plotter sometimes you get an error (that is due not to the GPS imprecision put mostly to different chart projections systems that not always are a match to the one used in the chart on the plotter) but is never an error superior to a mile and most of the time is an error not superior to 300m. If you can navigate giving always a berth of more than one mile regarding your position on the plotter regarding any obstacle (rocks) you will not have any problem. Off course that does not dispense the corroboration of the plotter information by the information given by the different navigation lights.

So yes, today with a plotter I can do with a sufficient safety margin night navigation that without a plotter (given the bigger incertitude) I would not have attempted.

I am really baffled that you cannot understand this. Do you sail and cruise at night?

Regards

Paulo
 
#904 · (Edited)
at the end of this post on page91 of this thread " Chef to Sail "wrote:

There are other tragedies happening for the SN comment on. All we can do now is wait for the results of the inquirey which will give us insight into any of the factors which enabled/ caused the sinking of the Bounty once she arrived ibn the teeth of the storm
.....

I agree..afterall...someone died a couple days ago on a commercial snorkel charter out of pompano beach as they tried to enter Hillsboro inlet...alot less background and drama here than a antique sailing ship or a frantic dash for safety from a sailboat in a race/rally...but one dead and almost two dozen in the water on a nice afternoon in Pompano...started a thread on this topic..it likely won't get near 91 pages long hopefully but it's just as devastating to all involved and as worthy of scrutiny as more publicized accidents...alot of us or our families have probably been on one these "super-pontoon" type tourist boats ...

P.S.-You may now carry on.. almost to a hundred pages here afterall!!;)

The Medical Examiner on Friday ruled the Thanksgiving Day death of a diver aboard a capsized boat a drowning. - Page 2 - South Florida Sun-Sentinel.com
 
#909 ·
Certification in a field is not a gauentee of competancy. It does mean however you have the ability to 1- take a standardized test and 2- regurgitate the information the certifying agency has deemed important on the test. It does not have any correllation to retaining other than the day of the test what was on the test. It does not necessarily reflect what is needed in real life situations therefore the material is not always relevant. Some times these tests are created to satisfy a governement agency, to make money for the industry, or keep too many people from being able to compete for jobs. This does not minimize the importantce of testing. Many certifications also have an experiencial component connected with them.

In the marine industry all this testing doesnt assure that the people certified make proper decisions 100% of the time. We are humans, that is not possible. The alternative not to have or require testing is not palatable though. The Bounty Captain was tested and certified, so was the Titanic. Mistakes and errors in judgement will always be made.

We also know that many decisions are made from common sense. Having a degree or certification we all have found doesnt mean a person pocesses common sense. Check out the professional Captains of the Bounty and Titanic

All this does is maximize the potential to make a correct decision, not gauerentee it.
 
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#910 · (Edited)
Certification in a field is not a gauentee of competancy. ....

All this does is maximize the potential to make a correct decision, not gauerentee it.
Yes I agree with that. It is just what I am saying. As I have said in my opinion Takefive nailed already the subject:

Having a certification does not guarantee full competence in any field. However, a person who lacks the ability or persistence to pass the certification requirements is almost certainly not fully competent.

In other words, certification is a necessary but not sufficient condition for competence.

It is absurd to suggest that licenses and training have little correlation with competence. It is simply not true. The correlation is not 100% perfect, but it is a very strong correlation.
Regards

Paulo
 
#911 ·
This thread has run its course till the investigation concludes or there is new info, but fret not there is another tragedy thread started to comment on....Its the catamnaran dive boat running the inlet....let the speculations begin!!!!! \

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Medical Examiner on Friday ruled the Thanksgiving Day death of a diver aboard a capsized boat a drowning. - Page 2 - South Florida Sun-Sentinel.com

Might as well start speculating here. Only one less death than the Bounty and the same as Rule 62. I am sure there is something to be learned from this for the future?

Was the Captain at fault comming in on wind and current opposition? Why didnt he respect the new sandbar formed? Were the wearung PFD.s? Did he try and use his chartplotter to navigate the inlet?

Let me go pop some popcorn.

Dave
 
#931 · (Edited)
Yeah, I keep forgetting - this is the 21st century, and now a Kinder, Gentler Ocean will graciously forgive such stowage of a tender on passage... (grin)

Hanging around the docks for the week or so prior to the departure of something like the 1500 can be an eye-opening experience, for some... Seeing arriving crew dragging freakin' SUITCASES down the docks towards a Hylas 56, it becomes pretty apparent some of these folks likely don't have a CLUE what they might be in for...JonEisenberg
Hell thats probably what the clipper ship capitains and crew were saying in Southhampton England as people boarded the tourist ship called the Titanic,
Well, I'm not sure of the relevance of the comparison between being one of 6 crewmembers for an ocean passage on a 56' yacht, and being one of a couple of thousand passengers aboard an ocean liner...

John I dont completely disagree with what you are saying, but how do you propose changing what you see?
Well, people learning to first sail aboard more sensibly sized boats might be a start...

Among the boats I delivered this year were a Gozzard 44, and a Cabo Rico 42, to new owners... In each case, they were the FIRST boat - of any size or kind - that either one had ever owned...

On the CR, I could hardly see around the plotter... (grin)

 
#914 ·
Hanging around the docks for the week or so prior to the departure of something like the 1500 can be an eye-opening experience, for some... Seeing arriving crew dragging freakin' SUITCASES down the docks towards a Hylas 56, it becomes pretty apparent some of these folks likely don't have a CLUE what they might be in for...JonEisenberg
Hell thats probably what the clipper ship capitains and crew were saying in Southhampton England as people boarded the tourist ship called the Titanic,

John I dont completely disagree with what you are saying, but how do you propose changing what you see?
 
#916 ·
On this link that Sal posted and that is a recent article there are some interesting new statements and information:

Quoted:

"The ship .. was "built as a movie set, not an ocean-going ship," said longtime tall ship designer and naval architect Andrew Davis, president of Tri-Coastal Marine in California....The Bounty was nearly twice as long as the original vessel, lengthened to accommodate movie crews....

Barksdale's knowledge of engines, motors and things mechanical qualified him to be the Bounty's engineer. But he spent his first three weeks of his six-week experience on the Bounty while the ship was in dry dock in Maine getting its hull caulked with oakum. Sailing aboard a tall ship ..."It was a chance to do something in a way it was done 200 years ago, to go to sea and just step back in time," Barksdale said.

In Nelson, he operates a home-repair company called the Honey-Do Handyman, a name suggesting he's not unaccustomed to taking orders.

Barksdale, a novice at sea...was finding it increasingly difficult to do his job. Working in the engine room, Barksdale encountered high temperatures in cramped quarters, surrounded by two couch-size generators and twin 375 horsepower diesel main engines. He could barely afford to let go of something secure.

"All of our hands were numb from having to hold on to something," he said. "It took a death grip to hold on."...

Barksdale said the ship was being hit by 70 mph winds and 30-foot seas. Over the next several hours, the main engines failed, leaving the boat without propulsion and without the hydraulic pumps. It became impossible to fight the water level inside the boat's hull, which was rising about 2 feet each hour, Barksdale acknowledged.

"It was clear the boat was filling with water but I don't understand entirely why that happened and I'm not going to speculate. We were taking on more water than we were pumping out." The second generator was the last to fail...

Barksdale was being overwhelmed in the engine room and other crew members, including Walbridge and Svendsen, rushed to spell him, trying to keep the pumps free of clogging debris.

"I couldn't take more than an hour at a time in there," Barksdale said, describing how he was becoming increasingly seasick, drained by the 100-degree heat and battered as the ship twisted and turned in the waves and wind.

"Some of the real heroes of all this are the crew members who climbed the rat lines, got up in the rigging and were able to furl the sails," he said.

Barksdale said he and the rest of the crew had been able to get only a few hours sleep in the previous two days.

"You had to hold on to something solid with one hand and try to clear the pumps with the other, trying not to bang your head or crash against something the whole time. I was just exhausted and so was everyone else," Barksdale said.

Questions persist about the loss of a ship and two lives far at sea - Richmond Times-Dispatch: News:

The rest is already been told in other article even if this one is the best I have read.

Some new things. Barksdale confirmed my conviction that the boat was not being sailed but relied only on its engines and at the end only in one.

It seems also that Flatballer was right in what regards problems with debris clogging the pumps.

....
 
#922 ·
On this link that Sal posted and that is a recent article there are some interesting new statements and information:

Quoted:

dry dock in Maine getting its hull caulked with oakum.

"It was clear the boat was filling with water but I don't understand entirely why that happened and I'm not going to speculate. We were taking on more water than we were pumping out."

trying to keep the pumps free of clogging debris.

increasingly seasick, drained by the 100-degree heat

I was just exhausted and so was everyone else," Barksdale said.


I've always thought that its more than one problem that makes a catastrophe.

Does anyone know if new caulking can be a problem? Or if its new its gunna be great? I would have thought that if its not put in right, and its not so simple to do, then if a whole lot comes out that could explain it. But I still prefer the sprung plank theory.

Sea sickness, exhaustion and then something so "simple" as crap in the bilge pumps strainer. I know mine clogs and in an emergency I am just flicking the mesh. Perhaps I will put in a raw water type strainer which one can clean pretty well instantly... And can hold a lot more debris.

I have no doubt the mechanic was as courageous as the crew that went up the rigging. Being below the waterline in that mess in a leaking ship, seasick and exhausted must have been terrible.
 
#918 ·
Barksdale confirmed my conviction that the boat was not being sailed but relied only on its engines and at the end only in one.
I must have missed seeing this , where did it say it didnt sail at all, just motored thw whole time

Barksdale also shoots a hole into the theory that the Captain was some A hole unqualified, blowhard who was followed blindly by a crew of cultists like who followed Jim Jones as was speculated by some in this thread
 
#927 ·
I must have missed seeing this , where did it say it didnt sail at all, just motored the whole time
I did not have said that they had motored all time, I said that it seems that the boat was not being sailed at the time of the accident, when they had no engines left. The "Engineer" says that they had furled the sails. These ones are not like the genoa in your boat that can be furled partially. You furl them or unfurled them. Besides in the photos of the boat lying on the sea you cannot see any sail.

Barksdale also shoots a hole into the theory that the Captain was some A hole unqualified, blowhard who was followed blindly by a crew of cultists like who followed Jim Jones as was speculated by some in this thread
That is a strong one Dave:D

We all know what Braksdale and all the crew thought about the Captain. They valued him so much that have followed him to the pass of an Hurricane without any question:rolleyes:. His opinion or the opinion of the rest of the crew is irrelevant to asses if he was a good Captain or not. A good Captain does not make gross judgment errors and put all his crew in danger in the face of predictable events.

I have already said that the Captain was a great sailor, had certainly a lot of charisma and was probably a nice guy. That does not make him necessarily a good Captain.

Regards

Paulo
 
#919 ·
Therapy...now that was the most intelligent post you have ever done.
Keep up the good work.

Good god man its only the internet...if it torments you so you dont have to read the stuff you know.

Dave
 
#930 ·
Some new things. Barksdale confirmed my conviction that the boat was not being sailed but relied only on its engines and at the end only in one PCP.
really means

I said that it seems that the boat was not being sailed at the time of the accident, when they had no engines left.PCP
Ok I get it. I asume you mean the accident being at the end of the voyage. I was wondering bevause That boat would have really suprised me motoring to get to that position, when previous reports said the motor was barely able to power the boat.

Riddle me this I cant seem to grasp this...one one hand you say refering to Barksdale:

His opinion or the opinion of the rest of the crew is irrelevant to asses if he was a good Captain or not.PCP
then on the other hand you say

The rest is already been told in other article even if this one is the best I have read.PCP
His opinion is irrelevant to asses but I will quote what he said and find it the best statement I have read, but I also quote the gCaptain bloggers too.

So is his opinion and statement relevant or not?

BTW To answer your question...I do sail quite frequently at night. I have done many miles of blue water sailing at night also. I also sail in the Chesapeake at night where there are visable buoys, but not in all locations. Do I trust my chartplotter at night? I ALWAYS run my digital radar concurrently on my boat Lets just say that if I use it to navigate I run a secondary GPS instrument ( AID/ GPS/ DSC VHF as well as an I Pad and Droid phone to insure that what I see has a backup as I dont completely trust the chartplotter. When offshore I assume its off 1 mile ( way more than the tolerances). In additon I would never enter an inlet, shoal area, channel in a rage at night using just a chartplotter. I have the sense/ experience to stand off, heave to and wait for daylight. I have been put in situations before during deliveries as well as my own coastal cruising where I have stood off entering until daylight. Better to be safe than sorry.
 
#942 · (Edited)
Riddle me this I cant seem to grasp this...one one hand you say refering to Barksdale:

Quote PCP:
His opinion or the opinion of the rest of the crew is irrelevant to asses if he was a good Captain or not.PCP


then on the other hand you say

Quote:
The rest is already been told in other article even if this one is the best I have read.PCP


His opinion is irrelevant to asses but I will quote what he said and find it the best statement I have read, but I also quote the gCaptain bloggers too.

So is his opinion and statement relevant or not?

...
it seems pretty obvious to me but I will try to explain better.

Yes, this article is the better I have read since it makes the most complete resume of all incident, joining sequentially (regarding the accident) facts that have been cited in several other articles and joining some new information given by the boat "engineer".

The statement of the "engineer" is important since it shed some some light over the ship conditions and about facts regarding the accident. It is irrelevant in what respects Captain's responsibility in what regards having sailed the boat to the pass of a Hurricane knowing that he was there. His opinion regarding that irresponsible act is as irrelevant as the ones of the rest of the crew or the Bounty people.

It is already well established that Bounty's Captain committed a gross error of judgment sailing the boat to the path of an Hurricane, an error that is unacceptable in a professional Captain. What is to be established is not his responsibility in that but why the crew had followed him blindly on a foolish and very dangerous attempt to maneuver an hurricane.

Regarding this the Barksdale statement shades no more light than what was known before regarding the high esteem all the crew and all the Bounty people had for him, personally and as a Captain.

Regards

Paulo
 
#932 · (Edited)
Damn Jon,

Almost looks like mine without the side wings. My plotter is 9 inch for my getting older eyes.



I agree John. Actually I always tease my wife that her very first boat was a C&C 35. We married 7 years ago and I have had bher for 15 years. That most of us learned on sailfish, hobie, lightening and progressed to bigger keelboats. She started with a large boat. In teaching her and with people on their first
boats all the electronics dependence can not be always a good thing as you have pointed out before, which I generally agree with.

Where we may part ways is that it is fact and here to stay so it doesnt do well and you wont be able to convince especially the younger sailors who have been brought up with computers and gagets to make things easier by only speaking against it. There has to be a positive way to convince them to embrace the old with the new vs the old and the new. They are a great second reference point. And we have to get them to understand their limitation...just like a chart has them, This concept for them will be difficult.

Annecdotally I will tell you that I learned with charts, crossed the Atlantic with charts twice, and have embraced the new electronics as a great addition to the other knowledge. When teaching my wife about reading charts , not sure its because of her lack of spacial orientation in life ( cars maps included) or just her, but she struggled. She struggled understanding course plotting, current vectors etc. When I taught her using a chartplotter she learned it right away and could go back and apply it to charts. There are many others like this also.

I love those Gozzards. Not sure about the set up with the moveable settees in the salon whether I would like that, but the 44 is certainly big enough wed never have to sleep there. Do they sail well ? Never been on one except at the Annapolis Show.
 
#935 ·
boats all the electronics dependence can not be always a good thing as you have pointed out before, which I generally agree with.

Where we may part ways is that it is fact and here to stay so it doesnt do well and you wont be able to convince especially the younger sailors who have been brought up with computers and gagets to make things easier by only speaking against it. There has to be a positive way to convince them to embrace the old with the new vs the old and the new. They are a great second reference point. And we have to get them to understand their limitation...just like a chart has them, This concept for them will be difficult.
I am in complete agreement... So, why do you continue to insist that I "am ONLY speaking against" modern technology???

How many more times need I post something like this to convince you otherwise?

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/952295-post893.html

I love those Gozzards. Not sure about the set up with the moveable settees in the salon whether I would like that, but the 44 is certainly big enough wed never have to sleep there. Do they sail well ? Never been on one except at the Annapolis Show.
I don't know, I've yet to actually sail one... This one was a motor job to the Great Lakes the entire way:



My guess is that they need quite a bit of breeze to go, and can't imagine it would have been a very stellar performer to windward...

Thing that bugged me most about that boat, was the island galley/sink arrangement... I have never seen a galley aboard that size of boat, with such an amazing lack of usable counter space... Virtually the only surface of any size was either over the stove, or refrigerator lids... Even finding a space to dry dishes was problematic, one of the dumbest things I've ever seen, I'd imagine it would drive someone who actually likes to cook insane...

All I ever need to do is make coffee or a sandwich, and that galley arrangement even drove me nuts...
 
#937 ·
hen we routinely see sailors now taking chances in waters where "visual piloting rules only" previously applied, then exactly what is it - if not modern technology - that is allowing them to do so?

A stupid sense of false security that money buys them. Sorry, just back form the Nepal Himalaya, and saw all the stupid cruiser tricks that the dirt dwellers want to apply to high altitude mountaineering....Great money for you to lead the moneyed into the cruising world, hope you won't have to be with them too long, geezzz what a horrible endeavor you have to endure to make your crust.
 
#941 ·
Do you guys ever looks the water? what a horrible console to look at. Did you ever leave the office? aeventyr60
I make no apologies for the console. I also have no problem seeing the water or the sails in my sailing. The electronics ( chartplotter, depthfinder ) serve as aides to navigation to make our sailing safer and the autopilot located on the navpod serves to spell us on long passages offshore when we do costal cruising so we dont tire unecessarily and stay alert. If you chose not to go the same route as I do, that doesnt make you a better or worse sailor.

However your appparent intolereance for others who see the world different than you and your inability to discuss items rationally with fellow humans leads me to beleive its a good thing you are in the South China Sea and exploring Nepal. Getting along with others who are not the same as you must create huge social anxiety in you that you need to lash out. Lets us know if you intend on entering the USA so I can alert homeland security

Bottled water? aeventyr60
We refill about 20 of these bottles from a 5 gallon container as they store more easily in our refrigeration and reuse them for months

Thanks for your concern.

Two critical remarks with nothing positive to say. Thanks for your contribution to the community of sailors. :puke:puke
 
#945 ·
I make no apologies for the console. I also have no problem seeing the water or the sails in my sailing. The electronics ( chartplotter, depthfinder ) serve as aides to navigation to make our sailing safer and the autopilot located on the navpod serves to spell us on long passages offshore when we do costal cruising so we dont tire unecessarily and stay alert. If you chose not to go the same route as I do, that doesnt make you a better or worse sailor.

However your appparent intolereance for others who see the world different than you and your inability to discuss items rationally with fellow humans leads me to beleive its a good thing you are in the South China Sea and exploring Nepal. Getting along with others who are not the same as you must create huge social anxiety in you that you need to lash out. Lets us know if you intend on entering the USA so I can alert homeland security

Yep, rings on her fingers and a dodgy c clip on your aft life line...sure all the great screens in front of your face...wonder what else your missing? different route for sure? No intolerance, just pointing out some discrepancies, and some noted by other sailors too, gonna enter that reef entrance at night with all your electronic gadgets, or do you have the fortitude or know how to heave to for the night? something tells me you'll be explaining how you thought it was safe, all the gizmos were right on...or maybe you have a secret connection to the Bounty captain? Maybe if your take your heart off your sleeve you'll see that it is not lashing out, just pointing out some flaws. Yes, I'm sick of the damn water bottles. and I don;t care if you refill them a hundred times, still bad for your health and the environment. Bring on the DHS..what a worthless bunch of ****bags, still depending on them for your, so called "security"

So you survived "Sandy" good on you, I would of done the same. maybe you could add an MOB pole to your stern so somebody can find you too.
 
#943 ·
What is to be established is not his responsibility in that but why the crew had followed him blindly on a foolish and very dangerous attempt to maneuver an hurricane.

Regarding this the Barksdale statement shades no more light than what was known before regarding the high esteem all the crew and all the Bounty people had for him, personally and as a Captain PCP
I agree about his responsibility

I think your opinions of the members of his crew who you have prejudged predispose you to rejecting any comments about the Captain professionally. For some reason you sitting 3000 miles away can better determine the Captains qualifications and make comments and speculate on the why they followed him, then the first hand statements of one of the people on board. As I read Barksdales complete interview I came away with the impression it was fairly well thought out.

It didnt strike me as the musings of some groupie cult member who blindly followed him. Foolishly maybe...blindly no. In fact from the scenario he portrayed he spoke with all of the crew members and specifically gave them the option of staying. Did he cut them off from obtaining weather information....no. Did he corece them to go....doesnt appear so. Did he threaten them with actions if they didnt go...doesnt appear so, Did he drug them....probably not. So who fault was it that they went along not understanding the danger. I say they also made a bad choice. They trusted him too much. History is full of examples of this, that doesnt make them cult members.

This is why I asked before what would you do if you were presented with this situation? Call out the Captain? Call the owner? calll the CG? Call the Press?

Personally I wouldnt have gone, the danger and risk /reward was stacked against them big time. They made their own choices it appears, and they made incorrect ones. Hopefully they learned from this. The two who cant learn are the Captain and the female crew member who died.
 
#948 · (Edited)
I agree about his responsibility

I think your opinions of the members of his crew who you have prejudged predispose you to rejecting any comments about the Captain professionally. For some reason you sitting 3000 miles away can better determine the Captains qualifications and make comments and speculate on the why they followed him, then the first hand statements of one of the people on board. As I read Barksdales complete interview I came away with the impression it was fairly well thought out.

It didnt strike me as the musings of some groupie cult member who blindly followed him. Foolishly maybe...blindly no. In fact from the scenario he portrayed he spoke with all of the crew members and specifically gave them the option of staying. Did he cut them off from obtaining weather information....no. Did he corece them to go....doesnt appear so. Did he threaten them with actions if they didnt go...doesnt appear so, Did he drug them....probably not. So who fault was it that they went along not understanding the danger. I say they also made a bad choice. They trusted him too much. History is full of examples of this, that doesnt make them cult members.

This is why I asked before what would you do if you were presented with this situation? Call out the Captain? Call the owner? calll the CG? Call the Press?
...
I have already replied to your question. not only I would not have sailed to an Hurricane as I would have tried the others to do that.

Regarding the Captain I don't pre-Judge nothing. I have heard him saying foolish things about his ship and sailing conditions and I know that he took unacceptable risks with his ship (and not only now), that in the end lead to the ship lost and lost of lives. I guess he was a nice person and a good sailor but that has no relevance in what regards his decisions in what concern the safety of his crew and ship that should be always the first concern of any captain. A captain that takes wrong decisions about that or that does not take that as is first priority is not a good Captain.

Regards

Paulo
 
#949 · (Edited)
Yep, rings on her fingers and a dodgy c clip on your aft life line...sure all the great screens in front of your face...wonder what else your missing? different route for sure? No intolerance, just pointing out some discrepancies, and some noted by other sailors too, gonna enter that reef entrance at night with all your electronic gadgets, or do you have the fortitude or know how to heave to for the night? something tells me you'll be explaining how you thought it was safe, all the gizmos were right on...or maybe you have a secret connection to the Bounty captain? Maybe if your take your heart off your sleeve you'll see that it is not lashing out, just pointing out some flaws. Yes, I'm sick of the damn water bottles. and I don;t care if you refill them a hundred times, still bad for your health and the environment. Bring on the DHS..what a worthless bunch of ****bags, still depending on them for your, so called "security"

So you survived "Sandy" good on you, I would of done the same. maybe you could add an MOB pole to your stern so somebody can find you too.
Wow now take a swipe at my wife too..A nurse who helps save people lives? Notice she was smiling...having a good time/ Jealous????? You exude major classlessness. You sound somewhat bitter and lonely. I am so sorry you live such a banal existance you have to criticise those around you. Maybe if you worked harder instead of wandering aimlessly things would look up for you. You wouldnt be so angry and have some feeling of self worth so it woudnt be necessary to look at what others have and make comments.

I have no problem heaving to, would never enter a rage, actually never would have headed to the Bahamas. I fact I didnt. I have as much skill navigating and sailing my boat as I need to to sail where I sail. I can also do it without criticising what others have. What difference does that make really?

And oh my the way I worked hard and have a job so whats it to you if I spend it on rings for my wife, screens for my eyes, electrontics for our boat, there is a MOB pole as well as Lifesling, and dogy clips. I didnt spend your money did I? You didnt work for it? So why the jealousy.

Obviously you have been sleeping to long with the Yaks. Its time to put you on ignore,,,thats where all the trolls go.
 
#950 ·
Hey Guys lets keep it civil.

Regarding water bottles I just love good water and the one that you get from the marinas, specially on Islands, is many times of bad quality and not tasty to say the least.

There are guys that think it is right to pack the boat with beer cans and that think it is wrong to pack it with good water bottled?

Normally when I have the boat in a place with a supermarket with good and inexpensive water I pack the boat with water, I mean something like 75L of water. It is not expensive and just adds 75L to my boat water tankage;)

Yes, I have lots of storage space for that, it would be different if I had a boat with less storage space.

....
 
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