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  #1651  
Old 02-15-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Crew couldn't get the emergency pump to work. That's the pump no one had been trained to operate...."
This in itself is a particularly damning assertion; I'll be following to see if it is in fact true. I am almost speechless.
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Old 02-15-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
This is so the crux of things. Would you ever sail your boat like this? ( except emergency)
I have known boats that needed their pumps to stay afloat.. all were dock queens. This includes the USS Constellation in Baltimore before her recent refit
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

The Bounty was a dock side attraction for a number of years after it was rescued from its scheduled demise from being set ablaze at the end of the filming of the movie. After Ted Turner unknowly purchased the boat with his acquisition of MGM film rights, he ordered the accountants to get rid of it and from that time forward it entered the realm of blue water sailing....Just follow the money...or lack of it

The crew was lucky to have those survival suits considering the shoe string budget.
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Old 02-16-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Links are broken. Do you publish this here on Sailnet? Someone censored them from here? That would be big time wrong to do that IMHO.
No they were "hot linked" meaning referenced in my posts both here and on Sailboatowners.com but they were still hosted on a Bounty web site.

The images have been DELETED. Beyond that they have also been removed from deep scan internet archive searches which is very abnormal. My neighbor is a forensic computer consultant. Yesterday I emailed him to see if he could find them. His response was "this is weird I can always find something in cached archive searches but these addresses are simply gone."...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
They said that there was huge destruction of the newer work they had done in warly 2000 that I guess you saw because of the lack of ventilation and fresh water intrusions and thats why it didnt last long,
This would not surpise me. The frame was so rotted that it must have allowed enough movement/flex of planking etc. and allowed water in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
I agree more and more with you accessment about her being let out to sail and not just in a hurricane but at all. I guess if she had to be moved to Flordida it would have been only in optimal conditions and with and escort of some kind. The leaking alone would mean that. None of us would risk taking our boats out for even a day sail in a protected bay if the only way we knew wed saty afloat is if out pumps worked.
I have been saying this since the day I learned the boat sank in October and realized it was the boat I had seen on the rails at BHS so many times.

No one wanted to listen or cared back then and the only focus was on the captain. He still made a bad decision and still should have KNOWN the condition of this "pig in a prom dress" but still chose to set sail. Still, the boat should have been deemed a dockside attraction only IMHO....

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
She should have stayed a dockside attraction somewhere and not only would her legacy remained intact, peoples lives wouldnt have been lost.
Until the sinking that is what I had assumed she was. I never really paid much attention to the HMS Bounty other than knowing she was a Hollywood set in a Brando movie. If I had known she actually sailed with novice crew and ventured purposely into hurricanes I would have taken HUNDREDS of photos myself as it would have made a good thread........

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
I cant help but think why these people who sailed aboard her thought the amount of water and the deteriorated wood as well as the cobbled solutions were good enough.
IMHO because they were novices and die hard TS hobbyists so focused on their passion that they cared less about the safety reality than someone who is a professional.. I do recall reading that many folks who actually knew anything about wood ships bailed quickly on this venture, including some ships engineers. The final engineer was not, in any sense of the word, as related to boats...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
And then to go blue water with her. And then to sail in hurricane like conditions. She appeared doomed everytime she cast off her lines. That it was only a matter of time.
Quite frankly I am amazed she held up as long as she did and it is a really testament to BHS IMHO. She was literally held together by the "prom dress" and paint...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Another thing bothers me though about Boothbay Shipwright and I know its a very reputable yard. Since they were putting all this good repair on bad structure why did they not cover their own asses by stating that in writing.

IMHO likely because this is Maine where we still do things on a hand shake and a nod..


Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
In todays litigenous society where people know and are quick to cover their asses you would think that that was SOP.
In most places it is an I can assure you more yards in Maine will be covering their collective arses after this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
If they truly worried that the ship couldnt handle sailing conditions, and I beleive you assessment, why are they saying it could get to the next refit.
Sailed gently it likely could have made it to the next repairs. I don't think anyone at BHS expected him to sail her directly into one of the largest storms in the North Atlantic in 30+ years..

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Why arent they saying we will not certify any fix since it is being put on material as a base which will fail? Any reputable construction builder if he was rehabbing a building wouldnt put the skin on the building of the frame and I beams supporting the building were not sound. Why did they do that? It calls into questions Boothbays ethics?
Quite likely because this was the umpteenth time, over a 20 year period, this boat had been there and there was a "comfortable" relationship which was largely hand shake and verbal..

Jakomovicz and Walbridge were also "friends". I found Jakomovicz testimony to be some of the most offensive I have seen. Here is a guy with a claimed 40 years of experience who can only say under oath "Well because I have 40 years of experience and he only has 5"...How about citing some FACTS other than "I'm better than he is because I've been doing it longer"??? How about stating WHY the ship was safe? How about some details that show what Kosakowski said was not true? Surely Jakomovicz owns an awl? A camera? I mean the BHS has plenty of photos of projects on its site? At least Kozakowski came armed with photographic evidence. What did Jakomovicz present other than "I have 40 years experience he has 5".... LAME!!!!! Give us some SPECIFICS based on your 40 years experience......

I think teh conversation below was very, very telling and despite Jakomovitch arguing against Kozakowski I think it sealed the deal on "condition"..

Jakomovicz: “The key thing here is that it’s a 50 year old boat. You have to realize that that’s tired.”

Carroll: “Tired?”

Jakomovicz: “When you have a hog in the keel, that boat’s tired. When the backbone is tired and you take that boat in the seaway, that boat’s gonna work, and when it works, it’s gonna leak.” (“Work” refers to the movement of the timbers under strain.)

Carrol: “And you felt comfortable that Bounty was going to make the trip?”

Jakomovicz: “Oh, I had no idea it was going to go into a hurricane!”


There were sooooooo many mistakes in this debacle it is hard to pinpoint any one main contributing factor other than to say.....

THE BOAT NEVER SHOULD HAVE BEEN THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE!
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Old 02-16-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
No they were "hot linked" meaning referenced in my posts both here and on Sailboatowners.com but they were still hosted on a Bounty web site.

The images have been DELETED. Beyond that they have also been removed from deep scan internet archive searches which is very abnormal. My neighbor is a forensic computer consultant. Yesterday I emailed him to see if he could find them. His response was "this is weird I can always find something in cached archive searches but these addresses are simply gone."...



This would not surpise me. The frame was so rotted that it must have allowed enough movement/flex of planking etc. and allowed water in.



I have been saying this since the day I learned the boat sank in October and realized it was the boat I had seen on the rails at BHS so many times.

No one wanted to listen or cared back then and the only focus was on the captain. He still made a bad decision and still should have KNOWN the condition of this "pig in a prom dress" but still chose to set sail. Still, the boat should have been deemed a dockside attraction only IMHO....



Until the sinking that is what I had assumed she was. I never really paid much attention to the HMS Bounty other than knowing she was a Hollywood set in a Brando movie. If I had known she actually sailed with novice crew and ventured purposely into hurricanes I would have taken HUNDREDS of photos myself as it would have made a good thread........



IMHO because they were novices and die hard TS hobbyists so focused on their passion that they cared less about the safety reality than someone who is a professional.. I do recall reading that many folks who actually knew anything about wood ships bailed quickly on this venture, including some ships engineers. The final engineer was not, in any sense of the word, as related to boats...



Quite frankly I am amazed she held up as long as she did and it is a really testament to BHS IMHO. She was literally held together by the "prom dress" and paint...




IMHO likely because this is Maine where we still do things on a hand shake and a nod..




In most places it is an I can assure you more yards in Maine will be covering their collective arses after this...



Sailed gently it likely could have made it to the next repairs. I don't think anyone at BHS expected him to sail her directly into one of the largest storms in the North Atlantic in 30+ years..



Quite likely because this was the umpteenth time, over a 20 year period, this boat had been there and there was a "comfortable" relationship which was largely hand shake and verbal..

Jakomovicz and Walbridge were also "friends". I found Jakomovicz testimony to be some of the most offensive I have seen. Here is a guy with a claimed 40 years of experience who can only say under oath "Well because I have 40 years of experience and he only has 5"...How about citing some FACTS other than "I'm better than he is because I've been doing it longer"??? How about stating WHY the ship was safe? How about some details that show what Kosakowski said was not true? Surely Jakomovicz owns an awl? A camera? I mean the BHS has plenty of photos of projects on its site? At least Kozakowski came armed with photographic evidence. What did Jakomovicz present other than "I have 40 years experience he has 5".... LAME!!!!! Give us some SPECIFICS based on your 40 years experience......

I think teh conversation below was very, very telling and despite Jakomovitch arguing against Kozakowski I think it sealed the deal on "condition"..

Jakomovicz: “The key thing here is that it’s a 50 year old boat. You have to realize that that’s tired.”

Carroll: “Tired?”

Jakomovicz: “When you have a hog in the keel, that boat’s tired. When the backbone is tired and you take that boat in the seaway, that boat’s gonna work, and when it works, it’s gonna leak.” (“Work” refers to the movement of the timbers under strain.)

Carrol: “And you felt comfortable that Bounty was going to make the trip?”

Jakomovicz: “Oh, I had no idea it was going to go into a hurricane!”


There were sooooooo many mistakes in this debacle it is hard to pinpoint any one main contributing factor other than to say.....

THE BOAT NEVER SHOULD HAVE BEEN THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE!
I agree wholeheartedly with everything you have said,,,and I have since the beginning

I have not been the Captain basher as I actualy met him a few times, although he bears major responsibility in this taking an unift boat into a storm of increasing ferocity

The more the testimony I heard from the Jakomavitz the more I was sickened and didnt beleive him actually.

The people who singed on to sail and learn on this vessel the more you listen were really not experienced enough to see and recognize the warning signs that they were in danger actually from the boat and seemed convincecd that this lack of maintainence and structural integrity was somehow " normal". They truly were innocent vistims in this in many ways.

Even my friend Walbridge appears to have been so involved with his own dream of the wooden sailing boats and teaching others his craft, he seems to have lost the ability to recognize the limits of this vessel. He had invested many years in it, and with his knowledge surely should have toned down the sea time as this vessel aged. Certainly not faced off a storm.

Its all tragic and could/ should have actually been worse. This could have let go at anytime it appears. The only reason the3 survived appears is that they had trained and knew what to do when the boat sank, they had the equipment and survivual suits, and the unbeleiveable efforts of the CG to reescue them.

He had one last chance to save the boat before things really came completely unglued when under way and that was the duck in the Delaware River or even Norfolk and he didnt. He knew by then the serverity of what he was facing and that hed have to run accross the front of the storm and have his vessel pounded. He certainly wasnt chasing a hurricane as he did before by follwoing it, but was headed at it. At least in those locations he would have run with the wind and once there had far less battering of the vessel. Instead he chooses to shoot the Hatteras Canyon, gaveyard of the Atlantic,

The owner is still lurking in the backround....like the wizzard of oz. He has some responsibility I am sure in pushing the boat along and not repairing her or letting her sail in these conditions. He could have somewhere in this said no way. You also dont know the pressure he applied. He sits protected right now by his corporate lawyers.

It was hard to listen to all their testimony first hand

Sorry for the rant Very sad.
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  #1656  
Old 02-16-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
...

He described their procedure was to stay behind the foreward motion of the hurricane and utilize the winds wrapping around it from behind. If they accelerated or started catching up to the hrricane they deployed a sea anchor, anchor, or even hove too for a few days in one instance.

This is where the Captain said and meant he was . I understand his tactic now and it is not unlike what Vendee Globe or Whitbread sailors did in some of their tactics with low pressure systems. Of course the conditions will be heavy duty as it still is a big storm with winds and seas, but with the hurricane pulling away from you it allows you max winds with the every present danger pulling away and conditions improving. ....
Chief, that ship as not the seaworthiness of a modern Open 60 and even so skippers of those boats do not sail Hurricanes. In fact they do what you say with low pressure depressions with winds of 30/35K. With more than 35K they take avoiding measures and I have seen them taking cover on anchor at the shelter of land waiting it to clear with 40/45K winds.

On the proximity of an hurricane the winds will be far in excess of 40K. A hurricane moves faster than that boat (that is not the case with Open 60) and its course is not completely predictably. Chasing hurricanes for wind on that boat is like playing at Russian roulette with a gun. It is a recklessness thing to do with a wooden XVIII century designed sailing ship. it is madness with a ship in the shape the Bounty was.

Regards

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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
...
Even my friend Walbridge appears to have been so involved with his own dream of the wooden sailing boats and teaching others his craft, he seems to have lost the ability to recognize the limits of this vessel......
I guess you are close to the truth. Not only wooden Ships, he loved that particular ship and love can alienate reason and make us do stupid and irrational things. Would we not be able to do irresponsible and dangerous things to save our boat? I am not sure but I am sure I would never put my crew or family in danger.

Anyway there is a big difference here: He was a professional Captain and had a crew to his responsibility. His first concern should always be regarding the crew not the Ship.

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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Chief, that ship as not the seaworthiness of a modern Open 60 and even so skippers of those boats do not sail Hurricanes. In fact they do what you say with low pressure depressions with winds of 30/35K. With more than 35K they take avoiding measures and I have seen them taking cover on anchor at the shelter of land waiting it to clear with 40/45K winds.

On the proximity of an hurricane the winds will be far in excess of 40K. A hurricane moves faster than that boat (that is not the case with Open 60) and its course is not completely predictably. Chasing hurricanes for wind on that boat is like playing at Russian roulette with a gun. It is a recklessness thing to do with a wooden XVIII century designed sailing ship. it is madness with a ship in the shape the Bounty was.

Regards

Paulo

Paulo

I agree of course about the seaworthiness aspect 100%. Of course this boat should have never been out in those condtions at all as we now see from testimony. I am in total agreement with that. Thats not the issue I was identifying here so I am sorry if I wasnt clear.

My point was to the previous discussions in the thread where the Captain was villified with this statement ..."We chase hurricanes". The MEDIA ( and we know how they can exagggerate statemnts) appears to have taken what he said out of context. This statement made it look like when he saw a hurricane he steered toward it and actually waited for hurricanes cause he like the adventure and had done it before, gotten away with it and was doing it again with Sandy. With Sandy he cut in front of it.

After watch the testimony personally not having it reported to me by some newspaper persona and seeing the persons complete statement with facial expressions, tones, and inflections, it became readily apparent as to what Walbridge meant by that statement. The third mate as well as talked about this as he was asked directly by the CG Commander in charge of the hearing.

Maybe I was not clear in how I explained it. His answer was as I explained. They would never steer at incoming hurricanes ( until Sandy). But two different times when he was with the Bounty, once in the Pacific in and once in the Gulf of Mexico, the had the occasions to be behind a forward moving hurricane and tried to take advantage of it winds to make headway. Just the same as we were talking about the Vendee or Whitbread racers do. They stayed way away behind it but still had the advantage of the trailing circular wind field and it direction and sea motion. In the Gulf in the testimony her recounted that the Hurricane actually slowed down forcing them to hove to for 2-3 days. They were starting to pull in to close to its core as he stated as the hrricane was moving 4 knots and the ship was moving 11. This tactic makes perfect sense and is employed by others is my point and not some wild eyed Ahab chasing Moby Dick, or Walbridge chasing a hurricane to tangle with it as was portrayed in the press and then grabbed upon by other posters. The tesimony which again was not filtered by a news reporter was honest, plausable, and made perfect matter of fact sense the way it was described.
Thats all I was saying

I am in no way exonerating Walbridge for sailing into a hurricane path directly, l;eaving New London, or not pulling off and finding shelter and continuing once his vessels started failing to handle conditions, I feel I must continue saying this as sometimes when you post anything contrary to popular opinion here you get ;abeled as supporting his actions. I do not.

What makes his actions and the actions of the HMS Bounty LLC even more preposterous and suspect is the conditon of the ship/ Maine Sails personal observations as well as the current testimony paints a picture of patchwork but good repairs to an ailing frame which could never withstand even a continuos gales or repeated use of the vessels. The foisting of all blame on Walbridge would be to ignore some of the other issues which may have been a contribution and would have occured anyway eventually. Through this we may be able to have a great understanding what to watch for to prevent similar occurances in the future. Had this vessel needed inspections to carry people it comes out, that this may never have occured as hopefully the CG would have identified the issues beforehand.

My observation and maybe the reason the CG Commander asked the questions was to get to the bottom of the statement which had the effect of debunking the public myth created by the sesationalization of the news media that this Captain steered toward and sought out hurricanes to test himself and the ship for pleasure. It would make all the TS captains out to be like this/ The news media must sell their papers and mags so its understandable why they do it, we just shouldnt get caught up in at thats all I am saying.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I guess you are close to the truth. Not only wooden Ships, he loved that particular ship and love can alienate reason and make us do stupid and irrational things. Would we not be able to do irresponsible and dangerous things to save our boat? I am not sure but I am sure I would never put my crew or family in danger.

Anyway there is a big difference here: He was a professional Captain and had a crew to his responsibility. His first concern should always be regarding the crew not the Ship.

Regards

Paulo
Agreed as we all do when we take our boats out with others. Same responsibility. We are ultimately the person to hold the responsibility

Same responsibility when you have with others on ocean passages like the 1500 or are helping other moved boats as delivery captains.

Its is why I am so wary of peoples credentials when I help deliver boats. Anyone can claim they have the experience to help someone deliver a boat. That makes me really suspect as many are trying to gain it and over qualify themselves.

It makes me cringe when I see it and hope nothing happens to them or their shipmates. Especially when it involves deep ocean voyages to other countries as well as off shore where no one has been before.

I have only gone with credentialed captains on major offshore on deliveries tp places I have never been. I have helped others move boats and have been the most "seasoned" and "experienced" person on board, but usually inshore and only to areas I am familiar with. That has a huge responsibility attached to it IMHO. I never present myself as having more experience than I do as I have seen others do.

This is another thread though
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Day 4 hearing report from gCaptain.com
Love this guys writing style.

The Illusion of Experience – Bounty Hearings – Day 4 | gCaptain - Maritime & Offshore News
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