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  #1671  
Old 02-17-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by lancelot9898 View Post
. The lawyers are going after the deep pockets
Yep. The lawyer for the dead woman is onto it. He will get a payout for sure. The lawyers for the insurance company must be worried.
Lets hope it was properly insured!
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  #1672  
Old 02-17-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by lancelot9898 View Post
Mark,

I'm too surprised that people are talking as much as they are even though some may not be as forthright as others. The lawyers are going after the deep pockets and that points to the owner who is taking the 5th.
As I pointed out in my prior post, there must be a lot of pressure on the crew under questioning, since the lawyer guy is going to try to trap everyone into some liability, although maybe not since their pockets are not deep.

However, I am not surprised that they are all talking. The only way to refuse to testify is to take the 5th, which is a tacit admission that you either broke the law or did some things that are at least accusable. Taking the 5th cannot be held against you in a court of law, but it can be held against you in almost every other way. If I was called in for questioning about my on-the-job actions and took the 5th, I would be fired instantly. (Of course, if I answered the questions in a way my employer didn't like, I'd be fired then too. )

Every one of those crew members lost their job (since the vessel sank), and if they took the 5th, that would severely hurt their future employability in any line of work. The vessel owner will forever have a black mark on his record (probably deserved) that will prevent him from ever leading another foundation or any other high-flying executive job that those types seek. He's got a world of hurt coming his way.
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  #1673  
Old 02-17-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by lancelot9898 View Post
While I'm not a fan of regulation, I think most of the tall ships have stricter regulatory requirements than the Bounty due to the Bounty not taking paying passengers. I think that loop hole will be tighten up and feel disgusted with the Bounty organization for using that loop hole.
May I ask why. What is the "loophole" you refer to? If you listened to the testimony you heard from the Shipyard manager who had been dealing with wooden boats for 40 years tell stories about the commercial fishing boats and how horrible in repair state they were. Way worse than the Bounty. It seems the norm in the industry.

How would you tighten the "loophole" up specifically. How do you differenciate the Bounty who doesnt take passangers from any other commercial or privately owned boat who has a crew? What regulations would you impose? I am sure these are the questions the CG will struggle with when they make their conclusions as well as regulations.

How do you regulate what essentially is a private vessel? And to what degree?

I also asked whether you had watched any of the testimony personally and you havent replied. I am interested on your personal take.
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  #1674  
Old 02-17-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
To the exception of Germany and US most countries with a maritime tradition has only one or two true tall ships that in a way or another are state funded and are in good condition. There are are also several countries, including Britain, Portugal or Sweden that have several other wooden tall ships on display I would not as dock attractions but as museums and not in sail condition.

Tall ship - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Almost all of the Tall ships are today steel ships justly because it is a lot more expensive to maintain a wooden ship than a steel one.

I don't believe this will have any influence regarding European ships. As I have said not only mostly of the ships are state funded as the European legislation in what regards private owned boats and inspection is a lot more tight than the American one, being Europe a nanny state and all that jazz.

I believe the repercussions will be mostly over US Tall ships and in the end if reasonable measures were taken it will not affect negatively the Industry.

If the Bounty was classified as a boat restricted to sail in Coastal waters with winds in not excess of 5B (a fair weather limited boat) and had mandatory CG demanding inspections (not as a dock attraction) nothing of this would have happened.

Nothing is as damaging to the tall ship Industry as the series of accidents that have been happening on the last years with Tall ships.

Regards

Paulo
I almost totally agree.

I guess where the differentiation comes in on the classification of the Bounty. While it is considered a tall ship, it does not take passangers, therefore it is essentially a private vessel.

A private vessel not unlike say your vessel or even at most comercial fishing boat with paid crew. Regulations would have to be imposed on them which would affect many other commercial vessels which are like they are. What restrictions other than safety equipment do they operate under? My bet is many of them would not pass the true test of seaworthiness.

Just playing devils advocate here
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  #1675  
Old 02-17-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
The only way to refuse to testify is to take the 5th, which is a tacit admission that you either broke the law or did some things that are at least accusable. Taking the 5th cannot be held against you in a court of law, but it can be held against you in almost every other way. .
So of a policeman arrests you and you ask for a lawayer and refuse to answer his questions that is a tacit admission of guilt or did things which are at least accusable?

I agree with the second thing you said and not the tacit broke the law. That presumes guilt before innocence.

I dont know about you but I have taught my daughter to be very careful about answering questions posed by the police even if they tell her by her not doing that it makes her look guilty.

It is far different testifying if you are accused of doing something which in this hearing they are not, oit is fact finding. When they have the civil case, which I am sure Christine will against the owner, they will be able to question him under oath if he choses to testify. The right of self incrimnination is one of your basic rights.


Now that doesnt go to say in the eyes of public opinion that people wont thing they way you said. They will no matter what he says, thats why he says nothing. He has nothing to gain and everything to lose. Youd do the same in a similar situation as would I.
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  #1676  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Dave,

My personal take is that the vessel should have remained a dock side attraction which is what it was for almost 2 decades and never should have been put into service as a blue water passenger carrying vessel. To me lacks fishing vessel regualtions are no justification for application to the Bounty. Nor is it wise to skirt the requirements that other tall ships must comply with by not taking on "passengers" and merely calling them "crew".

While I agree with some of your postings and appreciate your insights, there are many of you postings that I find nit picky and condecending. I do not have the time nor inclination to debate any such matters and wish you well. If I was still in the Annapolis area I might even make it to one of the sailnet get togethers and many times talking in person is so much better than typeing behind a computer screen.
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  #1677  
Old 02-17-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
So of a policeman arrests you and you ask for a lawayer and refuse to answer his questions that is a tacit admission of guilt or did things which are at least accusable?
Dave, I disagree with the premise of your question. If you are already arrested by the police, then it's pretty clear that they think you've committed an act that is prosecutable. But that's not the situation here with the crew members. None of them appears to have committed a crime.

My suggestion was to avoid unnecessarily "upping the ante" by taking the 5th when subpoenaed for a fact-finding investigation in which you are not the target. Taking the 5th is anyone's right, but it also raises suspicion of having committed an act that could be prosecutable and makes you an even bigger target for civil litigation, termination by your employer, etc. As I said, the Constitution protects you against certain things when you take the 5th, but there are a whole lot of other things (such as termination from employment) that it does not protect you against. And many people do not realize the full consequences of taking the 5th.

The premise of your question was that a person has already been arrested by the police, so that threshhold has already been exceeded. If you've been arrested by the police, you're already in big legal trouble (obviously they think you've committed a prosecutable act) and you should absolutely not answer a single question until you have a lawyer present.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
...I dont know about you but I have taught my daughter to be very careful about answering questions posed by the police even if they tell her by her not doing that it makes her look guilty...
I share your skepticism of police, but the fact that you told her to "be very careful" and not to always "take the 5th" is evidence that you are agreeing with my statement, not disagreeing.

Caution is certainly advised whenever dealing with the police. I know of too many cases where they made up exaggerated stories to support their case, planted evidence, and entrapped people. I had a good friend who was about the only one in his family who was not a NJ State Trooper, and he told me that they all racially profile, pull people over without just cause, etc. I myself was pulled over by a local Ridley Township cop who accused me of planning to make an illegal U-turn at a traffic light 1/4 mile down the road. It's a long story, it was an intersection where a whole bunch of cars make illegal U-turns and they had a "sting" that day. I guarantee you that if I "took the 5th" I would have gotten my ass hauled off to the judge. Instead I pointed out that I was headed home from work and the address shown on my drivers license proved that I would be making a left turn at the light, and I had no reason to make a U-turn there. (By the way, that very cop was fired and prosecuted a year later for beating up a Wawa cashier in her own store. Her crime? Asking for ID to purchase tobacco, as required by state law.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
...Now that doesnt go to say in the eyes of public opinion that people wont thing they way you said. They will no matter what he says, thats why he says nothing. He has nothing to gain and everything to lose. Youd do the same in a similar situation as would I.
No, I think he took the 5th because he was (in my opinion) running a passenger-carrying vessel that was merely credentialed as a dockside attraction. The apparent evidence that he was planning to start carrying disabled kids in Florida raises the stakes even more.
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  #1678  
Old 02-17-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by lancelot9898 View Post
Dave,

My personal take is that the vessel should have remained a dock side attraction which is what it was for almost 2 decades and never should have been put into service as a blue water passenger carrying vessel. To me lacks fishing vessel regualtions are no justification for application to the Bounty. Nor is it wise to skirt the requirements that other tall ships must comply with by not taking on "passengers" and merely calling them "crew".

While I agree with some of your postings and appreciate your insights, there are many of you postings that I find nit picky and condecending. I do not have the time nor inclination to debate any such matters and wish you well. If I was still in the Annapolis area I might even make it to one of the sailnet get togethers and many times talking in person is so much better than typeing behind a computer screen.
I actuality I agree with your acessment of the Bounty remaining a dockside attraction. Under such circumstances she definately would have not kept up financially and could not survive. It seems like they were caught between the rock and hard place and constantly had to move her for funding for survival. Her upkeep and repair were way behind safety measures for having passangers on board and to fix things to that level would have required a funding they couldnt acheive. She was in major disrepair behind the facade and an accident waiting to happen if she continued sailing.

Her captain could not give up their love for the traditional wooden vessel and failed to see the reality of the condition to the end risking her in rough weather when maybe she never should have really left the dock. Her crew were inexperienced and just did what they did for the love of the lore of the tall ship sailing vessel as well as the trust of their teacher the captain.

How the CG can prevent something similar from happening on a private vessel will be interesting to see, as they need to do the same with other private vessels too such as commercial fishers, which I do not think they are prepared to enter that arena and would get major pushbcak from the private maritime industry. As Pauio points out the vessels owned by countries have the reasources to truly keep up with the upkeep required.

You may call it condescending, but my issue with your post concerning the gCaptain writer was that both the writer and I watched or were present for the whole hearing so far. You werent I assume. Yet you stated unequivocally I was wrong about his bias. I cant figure out what that is based on and have asked you to explain. I have tried to post each of the testimonies as has Rockdawg as we both seem to be the only ones watching it. I wish more people were so we would have different viewpoints.

I felt the posting was a little self serving and by omission of some critical parts of the statements of the testifiers or posting their comments out of context help sensationalize things somewhat and gave them a bias. news media is biased in the first pplace and as was pointed out the audience was the gCaptain site members who have alreaduy formed their opinions so it made sense to substantiate them.

My feelings about what happened have not changed soince day one when I pleaded for restratint and not jumping to conslusions on all aspects of this Bounty as it would p[revent us learning for the future. Aside from the obvious statement the Capatain should have never left the dock which has remnained true throughout for me and everyone, some of the testimony has brought forth other culpable people as well as cleared up some of the early posts opr reporting.

Had you not watched the hearing and had the ophrase explained to you by the crew...the statement that the Captain " chased hurricanes" was one example of this.

The desrepair was reported by Mainesail early on and he thinks it should never have left the dock, Listening to the testimony is almost incredulous to me that a reputable yard would tack new boards onto ricky ones and let the vessel sail of without so much as a protest or informing the CG. Instead one of them took pictires to cover their ass which never sbhowed up till after she sank. And then there is the owner and Bounty Corp LLC whose culpability is shrouded oin secracy as of yet, but which feels like there was some pressure there. We will have to wait till the ;awsuits to figure out what actual part they played.

I dont know the answers or recommendatuons yet from the CG. I can say that if the Bounty had to rely on only gate admissions to remain solvent it would not have. She wasnt worth anything to anyone in her present repair state and had the oppertunity we just found out for a possible endowment in Florida, thus she was moved. The ownership of her was faced with either a financial loss by scrapping her, a move to Florida to find funding, or an insurance claim if she sank or burned. I am not accusing anyone just staing the obvious. Like someone posted before follow the money.

Its a sad sad story because we al love the image of the old tall ships. If she was some old tuna fisherman or commercial fishing boat we woulkdnt care about all this, but she represented the Bounty.
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  #1679  
Old 02-17-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
I dont know the answers or recommendatuons yet from the CG. I can say that if the Bounty had to rely on only gate admissions to remain solvent it would not have. She wasnt worth anything to anyone in her present repair state and had the oppertunity we just found out for a possible endowment in Florida, thus she was moved. The ownership of her was faced with either a financial loss by scrapping her, a move to Florida to find funding, or an insurance claim if she sank or burned. I am not accusing anyone just staing the obvious. Like someone posted before follow the money.

Its a sad sad story because we al love the image of the old tall ships. If she was some old tuna fisherman or commercial fishing boat we woulkdnt care about all this, but she represented the Bounty.
True enough in my experience. I wonder how many here have actually spent more than an hour or two sailing on a Tall Ship? Very, very few I expect.. and that's amongst sailing people, not the general populace.

As the years pass, the priviledge of sailing on an old wooden sailing vessel is one known to fewer and fewer people because the significant amount of money required for the up-keep of these vessels (built when labour was cheap and materials expensive, it is now the other way around) means they usually become unwanted museum exhibits or stripped, discarded and burned. Possibly the best end they could have is to be lost at sea - like the Bounty.

Truth is, there are very, very few countries left in the world that actually give a stuff about their maritime heritage (Portugal and New Zealand are the only two I know) - and the direct result is that the general populace don't either.

eg. I consider myself very priviledged to have spent many months at sea aboard what was, officially, the world's oldest active passenger vessel. It, like the QEII and a host of other now-forgotten fully-rivetted ships, was effectively banned from sailing the oceans of the world with the introduction of SOLAS 2010, leaving us with the current generation of steel boxes. As a result, current and future generations will never experience what life was like on a genuine old ship. Perhaps the end is near for training sail also?
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post

No, I think he took the 5th because he was (in my opinion) running a passenger-carrying vessel that was merely credentialed as a dockside attraction. The apparent evidence that he was planning to start carrying disabled kids in Florida raises the stakes even more.
That's an interesting point, was my first thought after reading the OUTSIDE article where that possibility was raised, as well...

The BOUNTY foundation would have been straying dangerously close to RAW FAITH territory, there...



Lest we forget, another recent high-profile American maritime tragedy featured a program designed to get disabled out on the water - that clown who was running those cruises on San Diego Bay, with a grossly overloaded Macgregor 26...

The RAW FAITH saga was a classic example of the Coast Guard turning a blind eye towards those sort of 'private' operations, repeatedly rescuing, yet ultimately turning a blind eye towards the piece of crap it was, and the incompetence and lunacy of the builder/operator... It was a miracle no lives were lost when that POS finally, mercifully went down...

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