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Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > Vessels Lost, Missing, or in Danger
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  #1691  
Old 02-17-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
GIVE ME A BREAK!! While I love sailing and tall ships, suggesting that the space program is less essential to our collective well-being than refurbishing old rotted out movie props is really stretching the limits of credibility. Given the defense and intelligence ramifications of space, I think there's pretty strong argument that the government should be funding space program - much stronger than the other option that you propose.
My point exactly.

If, just like here in Oz, your government and your people doesn't actually give a stuff about fostering genuine maritime heritage and making sure appropriate legislation is put in place to prevent "rotted out movie props" being used to cart people around oceans in the first place, why should you be surprised when one meets an unfortunate end?

..and thanks for the space program. We don't have one - but we do get to enjoy yours.
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  #1692  
Old 02-17-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt Len View Post
It seems to me that most parts of the world offer an interested public and some degree of assistance and funding for classic or historic vessels.
.....
Fortunatly this lament is buoyed by seeing PCP's note.
Not here I'm afraid. We even have a Register of Historic Vessels and being on that and two bucks-fifty might buy you a cup of coffee..

.. but my lament too is buoyed by seeing PCP's note.


EDIT: I've found it interesting delving into New Zealand's system. It turns out that the NZ government wasn't as interested in the boats as much as the Kauri they're built from, which it has since made it illegal to ship out of the country. Since a result was that it was then complicated for the locals to sell their yachts overseas, the government made it possible for gambling revenue to be put into various Trusts that, amongst other things, now own and operate many of their significant yachts.. Very clever indeed.
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Last edited by Classic30; 02-18-2013 at 12:00 AM.
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  #1693  
Old 02-18-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Preserving a naval tradition is no different then preserving any other significant cultural part of a culture. For some cultures the naval tradition is stronger and more important than in others and therefore the preservation has a memorial is more important. For other countries the literature, art are more or less important.

Anyway a culture belongs to a nation and for a nation to be healthy their cultural roots have to be strong. Regarding America it is no different. Look at the importance that the Americans give to their constitution. On most countries in Europe they are already in their 3th or 4th constitution and we don't have that reverence regarding the Constitution. All cultures are different as the different value they give to different cultural aspects.

The preservation of fundamental aspects of a culture can be made by individuals but should always have a government frame. After all a culture belongs not to individuals but to a nation and that means all. It is in this perspective that the preservation of a Naval tradition should be looked at.
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Last edited by PCP; 02-18-2013 at 09:16 AM.
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  #1694  
Old 02-18-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Preserving a naval tradition is no different then preserving any other significant cultural part of a culture. For some cultures the naval tradition is stronger and more important than in others and therefore the preservation has a memorial is more important. For other countries the literature, art are more or less important.

Anyway a culture belongs to a nation and for a nation to be healthy their cultural roots have to be strong. Regarding America it is no different. Look at the importance that the Americans give to their constitution. On most countries in Europe they are already in their 3th or 4th constitution and we don't have that reverence regarding the Constitution. All cultures are different as the different value they give to different cultural aspects.

The preservation of fundamental aspects of a culture can be made by individuals but should always have a government frame. After all a culture belongs not to individuals but to a nation and that means all. It is in this perspective that the preservation of a Naval tradition should be looked at.
This all sounds nice, but you seem to mistake preserving the culture, which can be done quite economically, with preserving the actual ships, which are made out of biodegradable materials and are extraordinarily expensive to maintain. At a certain point priorities need to be set, and that may mean you can't afford to keep pouring money down that "hole in the water."

European economies, including Portugal, are learning this the hard way right now. The severe austerity measures have been a disaster, but some changes are going to have to be made to bring your spending down to a sustainable level, and with so many truly critical things to spend money on, I am not sure that maintaining these old ships can or should continue at the same level that it has in your countries.

I am a naive Yankee outsider, so take my comments with the appropriate grain of salt.
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  #1695  
Old 02-18-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Sanderson testifyimng. He was in the engine room the whole time till the water shorted out all of the generators. He recounted changing filters...losing the battle against the rising water. Changing filters fir the generators. He addressed the issue of the floting pices of wood clogging the intakes and said it wasnt a real problem. He kept the the ends of the dewatering equipment under the water. he also spoke about the last time he saw Christine and Walbridge after they abandoned ship.

He also spoke about being in the water being hard to clear the rigging on the ship and then the final rescue, cllimpbing on the life raft.

Dave
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  #1696  
Old 02-18-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

NTSB questioner focused on the expeience of the engineer ( Barksdale) and while he was not ever around the whole time that there were issues in the engine room thast led to the sinking. Questions about the old water tanks which were now used as fuel tanks were the dried out. Was water coming into fuel tanks from the deck vents from the hurricane?

Was asked repeatedly about why he never asked the Captain about sailing S and not continueing East . This man was one of the officers and appeared to have absolutley no input in decision making of course. He appeared to not want to answer questions about who decided the course of the Bounty and was asked repeatedl;y about that, Since he was an officer oif the watch 8 hours each day the questioners seemed incredulous at either his lack of knowledge or lack of input into even wanting to know what direction they were going in. Points to the obvious lack of knowledge of the crew to even basic seamanship. Also note this Man Sanderson went to a 4 year seamans ship acheademy where this stuff was taught and he came out with a 500 mates liscence.

Dave. Breaking for lunch.
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  #1697  
Old 02-18-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
NTSB questioner focused on the expeience of the engineer ( Barksdale) and while he was not ever around the whole time that there were issues in the engine room thast led to the sinking. Questions about the old water tanks which were now used as fuel tanks were the dried out. Was water coming into fuel tanks from the deck vents from the hurricane?

Was asked repeatedly about why he never asked the Captain about sailing S and not continueing East . This man was one of the officers and appeared to have absolutley no input in decision making of course. He appeared to not want to answer questions about who decided the course of the Bounty and was asked repeatedl;y about that, Since he was an officer oif the watch 8 hours each day the questioners seemed incredulous at either his lack of knowledge or lack of input into even wanting to know what direction they were going in. Points to the obvious lack of knowledge of the crew to even basic seamanship. Also note this Man Sanderson went to a 4 year seamans ship acheademy where this stuff was taught and he came out with a 500 mates liscence.
I noticed that too - Unbelievable..
He also named one of the classes he took as "Hurricane Avoidance" and was repeatedly asked by NTSB what was he tought, his answer was "I don't recall".. - can you believe it?

Also he was asked what was the safest zone of the hurricane - his answer was "South East" corner..

It looks like he really doesn't want to talk why or who made a change to SW..

p.s. He was IN CHARGE of charts and course plotting..

p.p.s. Engineer testifing now.. says he "doesn't recall" hp rating of the engine.. didn't inspect inside of water tanks before putting diesel in them?? Doesn't "Recall" fuel consumption of engines?? Was slow to respond on what cooling system the engines have.. Keel coolers?

Last edited by Capt.Mhack; 02-18-2013 at 03:39 PM.
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  #1698  
Old 02-18-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Barksdale's testimony was interesting. I don't have a good feeling I wanted to trust him. I was at the airport, and I missed the early part of his testimony. Someone please fill in or give a link..
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  #1699  
Old 02-18-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockDAWG View Post
Barksdale's testimony was interesting. I don't have a good feeling I wanted to trust him. I was at the airport, and I missed the early part of his testimony. Someone please fill in or give a link..
He was asked about his job, he replied - "I was responsible for engines, generators and _I SUSPECT_ bilge system.. not sure.."
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  #1700  
Old 02-18-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
This all sounds nice, but you seem to mistake preserving the culture, which can be done quite economically, with preserving the actual ships, which are made out of biodegradable materials and are extraordinarily expensive to maintain. At a certain point priorities need to be set, and that may mean you can't afford to keep pouring money down that "hole in the water."

European economies, including Portugal, are learning this the hard way right now. The severe austerity measures have been a disaster, but some changes are going to have to be made to bring your spending down to a sustainable level, and with so many truly critical things to spend money on, I am not sure that maintaining these old ships can or should continue at the same level that it has in your countries.

I am a naive Yankee outsider, so take my comments with the appropriate grain of salt.
Yes, it is all a question of priorities, mainly to the people. The money needed to preserve 3 or four boats is quite insignificant even in the budget of a country like Portugal.

Around here people are quite pissed about the huge money that was spent on two new modern attack submarines (more than enough to take care of all old boats for a huge amount of years).

If any emblematic boat needed maintenance and the state could not provide it it would only be necessary to open a raising fund and the people would get the money because it is important to them and to us as a culture.

It would not be the first time. Some years ago a huge amount of money was raised that way to recover the XIX century Frigate Fernando e Gloria (badly damaged after a fire), the last ship from the "Carreira da India", the last of many hundreds on the last 500 years.


The boat is today a museum and a very good one.

Regards

Paulo
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