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Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > Vessels Lost, Missing, or in Danger
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  #1701  
Old 02-18-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by lancelot9898 View Post
Dave,

My personal take is that the vessel should have remained a dock side attraction which is what it was for almost 2 decades and never should have been put into service as a blue water passenger carrying vessel.
I think it's not the vessel, it was still floating hours after CG rescue.

It's the Captain who didn't spend the money to properly maintain it - and that happens in life, but behaved like he had an excellent 110% maintained vessel to attempt what he attempted and sail not only in to a hurricane but also in to Gulf stream with N winds.
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Old 02-18-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Yes, it is all a question of priorities, mainly to the people. The money needed to preserve 3 or four boats is quite insignificant even in the budget of a country like Portugal.

Around here people are quite pissed about the huge money that was spent on two new modern attack submarines (more than enough to take care of all old boats for a huge amount of years).

If any emblematic boat needed maintenance and the state could not provide it it would only be necessary to open a raising fund and the people would get the money because it is important to them and to us as a culture.

It would not be the first time. Some years ago a huge amount of money was raised that way to recover the XIX century Frigate Fernando e Gloria (badly damaged after a fire), the last ship from the "Carreira da India", the last of many hundreds on the last 500 years.

The boat is today a museum and a very good one.

Regards

Paulo
All I can say is... you are very, very lucky Paulo. As much as we'd all like it to, that simply does not happen in most countries.

Over here, such a ship would sit, and wait, and rot whilst various groups of excited enthusiasts tried to raise the money for the repair from their own funds. Only if it looked like some political advantage could be gained, would the government offer to help out in some small way. Sometimes they succeed (eg. James Craig) but most of the time they don't...
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Old 02-18-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt.Mhack View Post
I think it's not the vessel, it was still floating hours after CG rescue.

It's the Captain who didn't spend the money to properly maintain it - and that happens in life, but behaved like he had an excellent 110% maintained vessel to attempt what he attempted and sail not only in to a hurricane but also in to Gulf stream with N winds.
I wouldnt go that far.

Even had he had a 100% well maintained vessel....sailing toward a hurricane or cutting accross it is not responsible

The Captain didnt have the ability because of ownership to spend the money to maintain it it was prohibitive to the real condition of the boat we are find out. Small operation on a shoestring with no money except the gate of dockside visitors. I blame Bounty LLC and the owner for the condition. Like Mainesail has ststed before this should never have left the dock in any kind of weather as the frame was rotted beneath the structure. Testimoney today supported that. It was an accident waiting to happen.

The fact the it floated for a while before sinking means nothing. It was made of wood and wood floats and there were pockets of bouyancy in the boat. What is anstonishing though is that inspite of the leaks and the pounding that she remained intact for hours after the crew abandoned. Especially the masts
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  #1704  
Old 02-19-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
I wouldnt go that far.

Even had he had a 100% well maintained vessel....sailing toward a hurricane or cutting accross it is not responsible
Agreed. My point exactly! I don't care what his plan was, even in USS Enterprise it is still crazy to do so.. Biggest NO-NO and fail on his part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
The Captain didnt have the ability because of ownership to spend the money to maintain it it was prohibitive to the real condition of the boat we are find out.
Agreed. My point is that captain is ultimate authority and the person in charge of every soul on board - not enough funds - happens to all of us, what he didn't do right is to take that in to account and not go out.

I think he would have made it in to some port along the shoreline or far far east or north.

Again, not arguing that the boat was in any kind of "good" condition - obviously it was in a very rough shape!

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
small operation on a shoestring with no money except the gate of dockside visitors. I blame Bounty LLC and the owner for the condition. Like Mainesail has ststed before this should never have left the dock in any kind of weather as the frame was rotted beneath the structure. Testimoney today supported that. It was an accident waiting to happen.
I think every good sailor will share this opinion..


Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
The fact the it floated for a while before sinking means nothing. It was made of wood and wood floats and there were pockets of bouyancy in the boat. What is anstonishing though is that inspite of the leaks and the pounding that she remained intact for hours after the crew abandoned. Especially the masts
I think the fact it still floated, although couldn't be counted upon during the storm, shows us that the Bounty was probably the safer place to be in that storm at least for the people who died. I did look remarkably intact with no boards torn away..

Also one point I want to bring up that this Bounty-replica was modified from the original drawings in the way that made it unstable - for example they made it wider, wich screws up all the stability calculations put in the original.

It was more of a flat bottom boat than a proper XVII century ship.
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Old 02-19-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
..
Even had he had a 100% well maintained vessel....sailing toward a hurricane or cutting accross it is not responsible
..
You have been doing a great job covering the inquiry but I have some doubts yet, maybe you or someone had already noticed something that was said to en-light these doubts.

1- When did the boat lost power and why? we know that one of the engine was lost over that diesel tank incident, running out of diesel and impossible to restart again. Was the other engine still running? When and why they lost the second engine?

2- Pumps: What was the main system? the electric one, or the hydraulic one, directly operated by the engines?

3- When someone said that the crew was not trained in the use of the back-up pumping system and didn't know how to work with it, he was referring to any of those or to a third one and if so that what system?

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 02-19-2013 at 01:29 PM.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
You have been doing a great job covering the inquiry but I have some doubts yet, maybe you or someone had already noticed something that was said to en-light these doubts.

1- When did the boat lost power and why? we know that one of the engine was lost over that diesel tank incident, running out of diesel and impossible to restart again. Was the other engine still running? When and why they lost the second engine?

2- Pumps: What was the main system? the electric one, or the hydraulic one, directly operated by the engines?

3- When someone said that the crew was not trained in the use of the back-up pumping system and didn't know how to work with it, he was referring to any of those or to a third one and if so that what system?

Regards

Paulo
Please correct me if I'm wrong -

1. No timeline was established but it is known one engine run out of fuel rest short circuited when water was high enough, which was rather quickly.

2. 5 pumps:

- 2 electrical 150 gpm - main system 208V, connected to 2" pipe

- 2 hydraulic 800 gpm each rated if connected to 4" pipe, they were not.
Hydraulic system can only run 1 at a time they were connected to much smaller pipe ~ 250 gpm

Bounty leak rate was estimated at 800 gpm, pumps as configured could pump 550 gpm ( 2 electric + 1 hydraulic )

Nobody was trained on hydraulic pumps, they were not tested and hard to start.

Last pump was a gas pump that didn't work as it was not used in 2 years.

3. Nobody was trained on hydraulic pumps or gas.

Last edited by Capt.Mhack; 02-19-2013 at 03:41 PM.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Sounds to me like, for all their Gumby suits, there were a few rather glaring gaps in their emergency procedures. You'd think "man the pumps!" would be a basic one on a leaky boat...
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt.Mhack View Post
Please correct me if I'm wrong -

1. No timeline was established but it is known one engine run out of fuel rest short circuited when water was high enough, which was rather quickly.

2. 5 pumps:

- 2 electrical 150 gpm - main system 208V, connected to 2" pipe

- 2 hydraulic 800 gpm each rated if connected to 4" pipe, they were not.
Hydraulic system can only run 1 at a time they were connected to much smaller pipe ~ 250 gpm

Bounty leak rate was estimated at 800 gpm, pumps as configured could pump 550 gpm ( 2 electric + 1 hydraulic )
nobody was trained on hydraulic pumps, they were not tested and hard to start.

Last pump was a gas pump that didn't work as it was not used in 2 years.

3. Nobody was trained on hydraulic pumps or gas.
The timeline I belkeive was that somewhere aorund 1800-2000 The pumps failed and the water started shorting out the entire electrical system and they wre in the dark. They had already made plans to abandon ship the had already contacted the CG through Email ( 2nd time) as the SSB and Ham were not operable so they still had power then and the elctrical pump was still working. The third mate then came out of the engine room and put his Survival Suit on. The started working there way to the back of the ship. Not long after that they were knocked off. All of them were very confused time wise. The last pump failed fairly close to when they abandoned.
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  #1709  
Old 02-19-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartley18 View Post
Sounds to me like, for all their Gumby suits, there were a few rather glaring gaps in their emergency procedures. You'd think "man the pumps!" would be a basic one on a leaky boat...
Actually after listening to tesimony I thought they had a fairly good emergency procedure for abondoning, and good equipment...its what save d them ultimately. Plus they practiced beforehand

They didnt have enough qualified people on board and the pumps failed to lack of knowledge, mainatainence and they were overwhelmed by leakage
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  #1710  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Actually after listening to tesimony I thought they had a fairly good emergency procedure for abondoning, and good equipment...its what save d them ultimately. Plus they practiced beforehand

They didnt have enough qualified people on board and the pumps failed to lack of knowledge, mainatainence and they were overwhelmed by leakage
Jessica just said she was in a great cabin when 1st mate came to the captain and told him to call CG.. Captain said no. This is if I understood correctly was the time they lost power and pumps.

I'm surprised they only had 2 reliable pumps pumping 300 gpm or less, and No manual pumps, i think few manual pumps would have helped in case like this..

She also said gas pump was stored with gas in the system for 2 years.

She says that in the beginning every watch would run electrical pumps to stay ahead of flooding, at some point they had to use a hydraulic pump wheb electrical were not enough.

The lawyer brings up an interesting point why the crew refuses to criticize the captain..

Last edited by Capt.Mhack; 02-19-2013 at 06:02 PM.
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