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  #1731  
Old 02-20-2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rgscpat View Post
Would manual pumps have had any significant dewatering ability in vessel as large and leaky as the Bounty? It would seem hard to work a manual pump against the large head (vertical displacement) to get water from the bilge to deck level, and that a manual bilge pump on a vessel like that would be mainly a placebo.
Thats how it was done for 200 years.. They don't need to get it from bilge to deck, water was almost on the deck already.. Also they were pumping by compartment, NTSB was asking them if there was any strategy to what compartments to pump first.. There wasn't..
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt.Mhack View Post
Don't mean to get in to your guys argument but I have to object here.

I watched the testimony and the "chasing hurricanes" was not debunked other than few crew members trying to imply it was a joke, but their testimony seems suspect as with the same straight face they claimed they "didn't know where the hurricane was", "where the captain was" when they talked to him etc etc.

Second, captain gave them less than 2 hours to think and leave, the conversation he had with them was" I've been to worst than Cat I and I and Bounty always made it". Nothing more.

Some crew members said if they knew before hand that captain will take the ship in front of the path of the Hurricane they would think twice.
The testimony I was talking about I beleive was given by the third mate on the Bountty when he described the previous two hurricanes he had sailed in with Walbridge. Do you recall the tesimony from him? Did you watch this tesimony?
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  #1733  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt.Mhack View Post
Don't mean to get in to your guys argument but I have to object here.

I watched the testimony and the "chasing hurricanes" was not debunked other than few crew members trying to imply it was a joke, but their testimony seems suspect as with the same straight face they claimed they "didn't know where the hurricane was", "where the captain was" when they talked to him etc etc.

Second, captain gave them less than 2 hours to think and leave, the conversation he had with them was" I've been to worst than Cat I and I and Bounty always made it". Nothing more.

Some crew members said if they knew before hand that captain will take the ship in front of the path of the Hurricane they would think twice.
When did you start watching the testimony.

The testimony I was talking about I beleive was given by the third mate on the Bountty when he described the previous two hurricanes he had sailed in with Walbridge. The Pacific one and the one in the Gulf of Mexico, Do you recall listening the tesimony from him? Did you watch this tesimony or did you pick it up later in the game?

If you didnt hear this testimony I will look at my notes and recreate it for you. It clearly explained that the "chasing hurricanes" didnt mean
he looked for them to challenege them as the news media had implied.
It was described as a sailing technique used going around the backside and behind a low pressure system. A technique used by mainly ocean racers as well as long range cruisers to sail in good winds.


With regards that the Captain gave them two hours to think and leave.
You imply they had no choice, but the testimony and evidence dont support that at all.

Everyone unless you were a complete ostrich knew days before that Thursday about the hurricane brewing in the gulf. I am sure that mariners were discussing it at the docks up there just as they were her in Maryland
by that point. The third mate had been to a four year maritime college where he indicated that one of the courses was hurrican avoidance, Was he asleep in class? They had more than two hours...the truth is they trusted the Captian and each other and the real truth is that aside from a few members who had been with Walbridge on other heavy weather voyages, none of them had the experience to know what it meant. There was a weather fax on the boat. They had acccess to it. Were they lemmings?

If I were on a delivery and the Captain turned and faced a hurricane while we were at sea, I would ask why and ask about refuge? Or at least why. he also allowed that kind of discussionas he was a teacher by reputation. We dont hear that any of that happened.

They werent forced to sail....they werent duped by the Captain....they didnt feel tricked by the Captain.....none of them even remotedly said anything like that in their testimony and they could have it said that if they felt thats what happened but they didnt say anything like that did they? This despite many openings by the questioners to say that.


Quote:
Monday, October 22
•NOAA National Weather Service issued public advisories throughout the day to inform that Tropical Depression 18 had officially become Tropical Storm Sandy with maximum sustained winds of near 40 miles per hour.

Tuesday, October 23
•The NOAA National Weather Service issued advisories indicating that a Tropical Storm watch would be potentially required for portions of South Florida and the Florida Keys beginning that evening.

Wednesday, October 24
•FEMA and its federal partners, through FEMA's regional office in Atlanta, Ga., monitored Hurricane Sandy, the eighteenth named storm of the 2012 Atlantic Hurricane Season. At 5:00 AM EST, the NOAA National Weather Service issued Tropical Storm watches for the east coast of Florida from Jupiter Inlet south and west to Flamingo, including Florida Bay; and for the Florida Upper Keys from Ocean Reef southward to Craig Key.



Thursday, October 25
•FEMA, through its regional offices in Atlanta, Philadelphia, New York City and Boston, closely monitored Hurricane Sandy located in the eastern Caribbean Sea with maximum sustained winds of 105 miles per hour, and remained in close coordination with state emergency management partners in Florida and the potentially affected southeast, Mid-Atlantic and New England states.
•FEMA Deputy Administrator Richard Serino held a video teleconference call to discuss the latest developments with the National Weather Service, partner agencies and regional representatives to assess their needs and readiness.
•American Red Cross encouraged New Yorkers to take simple steps to be prepared. New Yorkers were encouraged to download the free Red Cross Hurricane App for mobile devices to have real time hurricane safety information at their fingertips. The app can be used to receive weather alerts and get information on Red Cross shelters. The app also features a toolkit with a flashlight, strobe light and alarm, and the one-touch "I'm Safe" button lets individuals use social media outlets to tell family and friends they are well.
•As of 8:00 am, Tropical Storm watches and warnings issued by the NOAA National Weather Service remained in effect in southeast Florida. Tropical Storm warnings were in effect for Ocean Reef to Flagler Beach, and for Lake Okeechobee, Florida; and Tropical Storm watches were in effect for the Florida east coast from north of Flagler Beach to Fernandina Beach; from the Florida Upper Keys from Ocean Reef southward to Craig Key; and Florida Bay
.
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  #1734  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt.Mhack View Post
Pretty much sums it up:

"Here is what Matt Sanders, Bounty’s second mate, testified to Commander Carroll of the Coast Guard concerning the bilge pumps today.

Carroll: “The hydraulic pumps – when did you first use them?”

Sanders: “On the 28th” [October 28th - the day prior to sinking]

Carroll: “Was it used any other time before that in the season?”

Sanders: “Not that I know of.”

--
Carroll: “Were the crew taught how to use the hydraulic pumps?”

Sanders: “No, I don’t think so.”

Carroll: “Were they trained on the gasoline-powered pump?”

Sanders: “No, they weren’t.”

--

When asked why the portable gasoline pump was not routinely tested, maintained, and trained on, the answers ranged from absurd to worse. No one aboard seemed to have any idea that if you left gasoline in a can for 18 months, it would be a bad thing.

Faunt: “I’d seen it work once when we bought it and put it away and left it alone on Robin’s orders.”

Carroll: “Why?”

Faunt: “Because it wasn’t particularly good and we didn’t want to wear it out by using it. And it was gasoline and we were worried about fire!”

--
NTSB Investigator Captain Rob Jones pressed Faunt to explain why they wouldn’t want to practice with the ship’s portable emergency bilge pump and use it periodically to ensure that it was in working order. Faunt’s incredulous response, “But the pump was gasoline, why would we risk using it if we didn’t have to?” When he was asked why the hydraulic pumps weren’t ever used, he replied, “There was concern about wear, so they were held in reserve.”

--
On October 25th, Bounty was preparing to sail into the Atlantic and dodge a hurricane. Three of the five pumps had not been tested or trained in anyone’s memory. The ship’s diesel engines and generators had no maintenance records and their status was unknown. And on the way to New London from the shipyard, the 66 year-old Faunt, a five-season veteran aboard Bounty, noticed that even the electric bilge pumps weren’t working as well as they had been. He had been running those pumps for years and knew how they operated. He brought his concerns to Robin Walbridge.

Faunt: “Robin thought it might have to do with the impellers.”

Carroll: ”Did he ever check them?”

Faunt: ”Not that I know of.”
--

Less than four days later, Bounty was sinking. The bilge pumps couldn’t keep up with the water, one generator was gone and the other was about to go. Walbridge and Faunt – the ship’s default electrician and GMDSS Operator – were attempting distress calls on the HF Radio and the INMARSAT C. They couldn’t get them to work.

Carroll: ”Did you test them before you left New London?”

Faunt: ”No, we didn’t.”"


Sins of Omission – Bounty Hearings – Day 5 | gCaptain - Maritime & Offshore News
Do you have transcripts of the hearings?
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  #1735  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Mario Vittone writing about the tesimony of the Bountys Naval Archetect and Surveyor David Wyman

Leads to others possible liability and FULL responsibility issues.

Quote:
If his answers were bothering investigators, they were doing a good job of keeping it to themselves. They would only pause, write notes, and press on. But when Bounty’s final survey was discussed, the one done days before she sank, that appeared to change. The only evidence of his one-time visit to Bounty was after she went back in the water at Boothbay just before leaving for New London. He hadn’t checked any of the ship’s systems, he didn’t run engines, he didn’t run or test generators, he didn’t test the bilge system. When asked if he was told of rotten frames and if he inspected the hull, he said, “From the inside.”

Carroll: “What could you see by looking at the inside?”

Wyman: “I saw what I could see.”

Wyman expressed that this was just an initial walk-through survey and not at all complete. He would continue the survey at a later time, but he hadn’t worked out when that would be or where that would be, and he didn’t recall if they had discussed continuing the survey with anyone on or associated with Bounty. For the first time, the lead investigator appeared at least a little agitated.

Carroll: “Why didn’t you tell me in Boothbay in December that you didn’t feel you completed the survey?”

Wyman: (pause) “I didn’t really think about it at that time.”

Carrol: “A boat sinks at sea, you were the last one to look at the boat and you didn’t think about the survey?”

Wyman: (pause)

Carroll: “When did you determine that you weren’t finished the survey?”

Wyman: “When I left the ship.”

Carroll: “Wait – did you communicate that to the owner or Captain Walbridge?”

Wyman: “I don’t know that I did.”

If Wyman’s cagey answers and poor memory underlined any untruthfulness on his part, what happened next would be even more confusing. There were a lot of questions about Wyman’s handwritten notes that he took on the one-day survey visit to Bounty in October of 2012: who had seen them, who did he give copies to, or not, who had seen the document or hadn’t. Wyman denied that anyone had seen the document – that everything was verbal (or not) and that he had given the document directly to Carroll. But the lead investigator pressed Wyman about some numbers (apparently not in his hand or Wyman’s) written at the bottom of his notes. Jacob Shisha – attorney for the Christian family – clearly smelled something and asked Carroll if he might pose a question to Wyman.

Shisha: “At any time before coming to this hearing did you speak to the lawyers for the Bounty organization?”

Wyman: (another pause) “Yes. (pause) A couple of weeks ago…they called me.”

Carroll squared his shoulders and leaned into his microphone.

Carroll: “In a Coast Guard investigation where you were subpoenaed as a witness, you were on a conference call with a party in interest?”

Wyman: (pause) “Yes.”
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  #1736  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

From gCaoptain about the Boothbay Shipyard which had a judgement of $200,000 ( on a $400,000 job) awarded against them in the repair of the Schooner Shenendoah
a tall ship in 2012. Some of the repairs were similar to Bountys

Quote:
Other coverage I have been reading pointed to a Sailtrain Blog post discussing the Judgment entered 3/30/12 against Boothbay Harbor Shipyard for their poor workmanship refastening and replanking the schooner Shenandoah mentioned yet. There is plenty of blame to go around but perhaps the hull was working more than the crew expected because of shoddy workmanship in the yard. I wonder if any of these issues will be raised in the hearings, this kind of workmanship would doom even a well managed vessel.

from the judgment's findings of fact pg. 3
In June 2008, soon after being placed back in service, the vessel began to leak a significant amount of water. The leaking was far greater than it had been before the overhaul at Boothbay. Coastwise brought the vessel to Fairhaven Shipyard to investigate and repair the leaking. After certain repairs were made, the vessel was soon relaunched. The leaking continued, though at a tolerable level for the remainder of the summer season.
In October 2008, the vessel returned to Fairhaven for a rehauling and investigation. Water was seen dripping from bungs on planks below the waterline, and empty fastening holes were discovered beneath removed bungs. The vessel was recaulked and relaunched to make room on the railway and, soon afterward, was rehauled at Fairhaven for further inspection. Boothbay personnel came to inspect the vessel. They acknowledged that Boothbay had performed defective workmanship on the vessel, and Doane Heselton, Vice President of Boothbay, proposed to fix the problems at Boothbay Harbor Shipyard at no cost to Coastwise. pg. 4

From October 2008 until June 2009, Fairhaven identified numerous defects in Boothbay’s workmanship. It found, among other things, missing bungs, empty fastener holes, improperly installed fasteners, use of an improper sealant, overly wide caulking seams, poorly installed caulking, and too-short futtock overlaps.
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Last edited by chef2sail; 02-20-2013 at 04:12 AM.
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Old 02-20-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt.Mhack View Post
Thats how it was done for 200 years.. They don't need to get it from bilge to deck, water was almost on the deck already.. Also they were pumping by compartment, NTSB was asking them if there was any strategy to what compartments to pump first.. There wasn't..
The old-fashioned chain pumps used a couple of centuries ago on warships of the line required massive amounts of manpower... several to as many as a couple of dozen sailors turning a pump handle, and several pumps on the larger ships, and shifts of sailors to spell those who became exhausted. Merchantmen and smaller ships might have simpler common pumps suitable for smaller crews, but not have nearly as much pumping capacity.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
.....I am wondering also ( I always look behind things for conspiracies) how much of the hysteria is created by the " true TS" community.......
Chef, I have no intention of getting into an argument with you. But, I feel compelled to point out that you are among the most prolific posters on this subject and often the fodder for the debate you then criticize. Come on man, you like this subject in some way and are among the most likely to repeat yourself.

Personally, I don't think its beating a dead horse to confirm original assumptions as the hearing have begun. If I read an analysis that suggested otherwise, I would have found that valuable. You have continually tried to stifle those critical assumptions by saying you agree with the skippers responsibility. You missed my point. In the 100+ ongoing posts of this hearing, with yours being among the most representative, we are not learning anything significant that changes the initial assessment of this situation. Nevertheless, the incredible analysis of what is proving to be the obvious continues. There is no conspiracy, you and everyone else has a fascination with this matter.

Knock yourself out, I'm not trying to get you to stop. I'm just calling the kettle black, my friend.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Chef,

Not that it changes much,

Re: Changing course to SW. While most, including the second mate/navigator, seemed not to know why, one person stated that the reason was that when the storm didn't turn as the captain expected, he decided to go SW to get under the protection of the shore below Cape Hatteras, where the winds would be less but favorable for the trip south. This is consistent with how he handled the other two hurricanes.

Re: Debunking looking to sail into hurricanes, while most claimed never to have heard of it, one person, the AB I believe, said that he had heard words that tended to support that saying. And that he personally was looking forward to gaining experience in hurricane type weather. He aspires to be a captain, but when he was asked, if you were the captain, what would you have done, he said he would have moved up river and stayed at a pier.

I don't recall the exact words, so if you like, correct them since you seem to have pretty well have most of it recorded.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

No argument here... All is good

I agree I have been a prolific poster on this subject. It interests me. Maybe some others too still. I have been posting again recently to report on what was being said in some of the testimony. Testimony ongoing now. Testimony which I was waiting for if you remember in my previous posts, which I hoped and thought might reveal other issues as well as culpabilites other than the Captains which we had already judged. If you also remember I originally asked not to rush to judgement on the whole issue as it would prevent a complete picture from emerging possibly.

We all know about the Captain and what he did and how he was responsible....and it is your right to keep beating that dead horse of course...I have moved on from that, long long time ago...obviously you still need to keep focusing on him as is your right. We cant do anything about what he did now can we.

My mind is open enough to beleive that there are other factors and maybe possibly ways to prevent a similar occurance. My interest in looking at the other parties and aspects here discussed is mine and maybe some others. When it ceases to interest no one else the thread will die its own death.

Quote:
Nevertheless, the incredible analysis of what is proving to be the obvious continues. There is no conspiracy, you and everyone else has a fascination with this matter.
If this bores you feel free to skip it then I dont mean to make it personal abd certainly my intention is not to argue. Hopefully we can do that over Margaritas this summer when I am up in LI or if you come to Annapolis next year for the show or to see you friends here. Maybe I feel I want to waste my own time reflecting on this conjuring up conspracies where there are none, instead of posting about batteries, sewage tanks and snow storms. I obviously need to get out on my boat again

The incredible analysis of the obvious has turned up some new information by the CG at the hearings.

The reputation of the Boothbay Yard for example and its business practices seem less than steller in the Bounty repair as well as the Shenendoha now it appears. They lost a lawsuit with major damages concerning similar repairs it seems. The shipright in charge of the Bounty repair seemed less than qualified as he was contradicted on many points by the yard manager. We have now found that the Bounty surveyor failed to even survey the boat before it left the dock, no one tested the pumps, the repairs except for a cursory walk thorough.

The TS organization was notably absent in its criticism of the Bounty condition and its very underqualified crew, even though they seemed to know something was wrong, but its hush hush and no one came forward until of course the boat goes down. The sailed with her last summer during OP sail 2012 where I saw her for the last time when she was in Baltimore.

There are many loose ends and unanswered questions or speculations still needing to be tied up for this to be over.

How to prevent this from happening again, it doesnt appear you can ever change the human being from making mistakes and having bad judgement sometimes even tragically costing lives.

No amount of regulations will completely prevent the aborrant person driving in the snow and ice in an SUV at 75 mph, the aborrant pilot from flying the plane while intoxicated, or the aborrant Captain of a boat from leaving and sailing directly into/ across a hurricane. Thank god most of the drivers, pilots, and vessel captains are not aborrant.

Since everyone new the Bounty was in such deplorable condition maybe their needs to be a system where people could ananomously report any vessel. It appears thats would have saved them as it was ineveitable as Mainesail said for there to be an accident. Then again it was really a private vessel and many boats/ ships are in similar if not worse condition. Its funny when I went on her in Baltimore it was all covered and I didnt seen the gross neglect which obviously lurked beneath the surface.
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