HMS Bounty in trouble... - Page 179 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > Vessels Lost, Missing, or in Danger
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree718Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1781  
Old 02-21-2013
MarkofSeaLife's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,115
Thanks: 25
Thanked 51 Times in 47 Posts
Rep Power: 4
MarkofSeaLife is on a distinguished road
Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShoalFinder View Post
A hurricane at sea and one that is close to landfall are two very different things.

Once a hurricane begins to make landfall, the western side of the eye will be much less dangerous than the eastern side because the wind is returning from land, is slower, .

You fail to note that the western side of this hurricane was the Gulf Stream.
The ship went into the edge of it and foundered.

Unless you put the Gulf Stream into ALL your equations you can not be including the Bounty.

As for the Dangerous and Navigable zones they relate to the trade wind belt as it dangerous zone the NW Quadrant the wind is increased by the strength of the trade winds. In a Tropical Storm or a hurricane this will increas the wind by 15 knots to 'normal' in the Dangerous Quadrant, and the navigable quadrant will be 15 knots less than 'normal' so a 30 knot difference in wind speed between dangerous and Navigable.

Bounty went from Navigable to Dangerous and into the Gulf Stream,

But remember, there may have been a less factor because its above the trade wind belt.

Lastly, I would think they were far enough offshore to negate any land effect.
__________________
Sea Life
Notes on a Circumnavigation:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #1782  
Old 02-21-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 261
Thanks: 4
Thanked 10 Times in 9 Posts
Rep Power: 3
ShoalFinder is on a distinguished road
Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

I agree with all you said. I think you may have misread what I said, or I was unclear. The Bounty wasn't just bucking the Gulf Stream, they were doing it with hurricane force winds against the Gulf Stream. I don't see how anyone would want to be in that situation.
chef2sail likes this.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #1783  
Old 02-21-2013
MarkofSeaLife's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,115
Thanks: 25
Thanked 51 Times in 47 Posts
Rep Power: 4
MarkofSeaLife is on a distinguished road
Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShoalFinder View Post
I don't see how anyone would want to be in that situation.
I think I know. This is only my opinion...

There was some prospective buyers in Florida to see the boat on November 9th(?) so they had to leave the 28th to get there.
He believed his own bulltwaddle jokes about chasing hurricanes.
He lied to the crew about it.
He thought he could better predict the hurricane than NOAA so didnt go as far east as he said he would, thinking the hurricane would go due north.
NOAA predicted it would go N then NE then swing wildly NW. They were right, spot on and totally exact.
Capt got scared when H was heading NE and still wouldnt believe NOAA so, as he wasnt east far enough, turned to the SW sealing their doom through his criminal negligence as soon as they hit the Gulf Stream.

A clear, easy, causal chain.

Someone else earlier said...: Follow the money. Well ad ego to that and its spot on.

The lack of maintenance, lies re USCG inspections, certificates etc are an aside, any old boat hitting the Gulf Stream in a hurricane is in peril. My boat would be, yours would be, any 'normal' size boat would be.

Minnewaska in his post uses the word "Romantic" many times. Thats what has deluded the USCG, owners, hero worshiped Captains, crews, maintenance people for years about this boat. To a point it has killed people.


It would be very interesting to hear your, and others, why the Captain wanted to be there. There must have been compelling reasons.
__________________
Sea Life
Notes on a Circumnavigation:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by MarkofSeaLife; 02-21-2013 at 11:13 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #1784  
Old 02-21-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 261
Thanks: 4
Thanked 10 Times in 9 Posts
Rep Power: 3
ShoalFinder is on a distinguished road
Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

I can't think of any other reason myself. I was giving the captain the benefit of the doubt when this all happened. It wasn't until several days later I read that the Bounty was up for sale and he had to get it back to St. Pete. At that point I felt I knew the answer as well.

I can't speak to what actually happened, but the motivation for what he did points to your scenario, at least in my mind.


As to the storm track, most of them tend to go more North than this one did and then they swing east as they run out of warm water and the jet stream starts pushing on them from the west. Who in their right mind wants to put themselves between a hurricane and a lee shore to prove it would happen that way? I believe the captain was counting on the typical storm track and he turned out to be too clever by half.

Last edited by ShoalFinder; 02-21-2013 at 11:32 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #1785  
Old 02-21-2013
MarkofSeaLife's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,115
Thanks: 25
Thanked 51 Times in 47 Posts
Rep Power: 4
MarkofSeaLife is on a distinguished road
Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShoalFinder View Post
As to the storm track, most of them tend to go more North than this one did and then they swing east as they run out of warm water and the jet stream starts pushing on them from the west. Who in their right mind wants to put themselves between a hurricane and a lee shore to prove it would happen that way? I believe the captain was counting on the typical storm track and he turned out to be too clever by half.
I agree.
The interesting thing about the NOAA prediction was it followed exactly the track they predicted a week out, from before Jamacia. It was interesting to see if follow it, exactly. I was plotting it every day and by the time it went over Cuba it was obvious NOAA had it pegged...
The Capt turned out to be "too clever by half" and we all know what Neptune does then!
ShoalFinder likes this.
__________________
Sea Life
Notes on a Circumnavigation:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #1786  
Old 02-21-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 583
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 6
NCC320 is on a distinguished road
Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

As I understand it, the square riggers needed to run with the wind and generally couldn't beat into the wind very well. There have been numerous questions as to why Bounty went from a SE course to SW. A hurricane rotates counterclock wise. So initially, ship would have likely had winds from E or NE since it was ahead of the storm and to the west of the eye track. As the ship moved more east and south, eventually at some point it would be to the east of the eye track. At this point the winds would increasingly come from the SE, then S. So this would mean that ship was increasingly heading directly against the wind, which is an impossible situation for a square rigger. But if the ship could stay to the west of the eye track, the winds would increasingly come from NE, then N, which would be suitable for running before the wind on a SW course. So, unless he were to change to a more northerly course, the captain didn't have much choice except to turn SW. If the pumps had been pumping at their rated capacity, they still might have made it despite that they would have had to contend with the Gulf Stream, and the unique feature of this particular storm, wherein it was reported that the highest winds were in the SW quadrant. Once in this quadrant, the storm would be moving away from them after the eye passed to the east and north in any case.

Last edited by NCC320; 02-21-2013 at 01:03 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #1787  
Old 02-21-2013
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 31
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
Capt.Mhack is on a distinguished road
Today one of the deckhands testified that captain gave 30 minutes to decide if they want to go or not.
Also he didn't show any weather faxes or anything to describe the size of it, the name or anything else. He just described a system and that they will encounter rough weather.

Also the guy who was at the helm for 4 hours couldn't say what heading he was steering for 4 hours, or who gave him an order to steer that heading.

So what was going on onboard? Who was in charge? Incredible..
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #1788  
Old 02-21-2013
casey1999's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: HI
Posts: 2,818
Thanks: 4
Thanked 17 Times in 17 Posts
Rep Power: 4
casey1999 is on a distinguished road
Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCC320 View Post
As I understand it, the square riggers needed to run with the wind and generally couldn't beat into the wind very well. There have been numerous questions as to why Bounty went from a SE course to SW. A hurricane rotates counterclock wise. So initially, ship would have likely had winds from E or NE since it was ahead of the storm and to the west of the eye track. As the ship moved more east and south, eventually at some point it would be to the east of the eye track. At this point the winds would increasingly come from the SE, then S. So this would mean that ship was increasingly heading directly against the wind, which is an impossible situation for a square rigger. But if the ship could stay to the west of the eye track, the winds would increasingly come from NE, then N, which would be suitable for running before the wind on a SW course. So, unless he were to change to a more northerly course, the captain didn't have much choice except to turn SW. If the pumps had been pumping at their rated capacity, they still might have made it despite that they would have had to contend with the Gulf Stream, and the unique feature of this particular storm, wherein it was reported that the highest winds were in the SW quadrant. Once in this quadrant, the storm would be moving away from them after the eye passed to the east and north in any case.
Agree with you.

That is why it is confusing why the captain said:

“We run into stormy seas. We chase hurricanes,” Walbridge said. “You try and get up as close to the eye of it as you can and you stay down in the southeast quadrant and when it stops, you stop. You don’t want to get in front of it. You want to stay behind it. But you also get a good ride out of the hurricane.”

Why does he say southeast, he probably could not sail there even if he wanted to. He would have been blown to Europe. Would like the CG to at least clairify with the crew what was really meant.

Also, the Bounty GPS tracker clocked her at somthing like 17 knots when she was in the storm. Would be interesting to know what her real maximum speed was during the storm (cannot imagine she was really going 17 knots.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #1789  
Old 02-21-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 261
Thanks: 4
Thanked 10 Times in 9 Posts
Rep Power: 3
ShoalFinder is on a distinguished road
Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCC320 View Post
As I understand it, the square riggers needed to run with the wind and generally couldn't beat into the wind very well. There have been numerous questions as to why Bounty went from a SE course to SW. A hurricane rotates counterclock wise. So initially, ship would have likely had winds from E or NE since it was ahead of the storm and to the west of the eye track. As the ship moved more east and south, eventually at some point it would be to the east of the eye track. At this point the winds would increasingly come from the SE, then S. So this would mean that ship was increasingly heading directly against the wind, which is an impossible situation for a square rigger. But if the ship could stay to the west of the eye track, the winds would increasingly come from NE, then N, which would be suitable for running before the wind on a SW course. So, unless he were to change to a more northerly course, the captain didn't have much choice except to turn SW. If the pumps had been pumping at their rated capacity, they still might have made it despite that they would have had to contend with the Gulf Stream, and the unique feature of this particular storm, wherein it was reported that the highest winds were in the SW quadrant. Once in this quadrant, the storm would be moving away from them after the eye passed to the east and north in any case.


I think your scenario is exactly what the captain was hoping for. But he had to know that to do this he'd be bucking the Gulf Stream, with the wind going against the current. Worst possible scenario.

Had he gone east, as was reported, I agree he'd have been blown toward Europe, which would have been great since he could have used the outer bands to help get to the Azores if the storm didn't turn east and run him down first. So, the success in that option wasn't likely, either. If anything, at least that would have allowed him to run to Nova Scotia. Of all possible storm tracks, the likelihood of being followed to Halifax was slim.

I think he believed the storm was going to turn east, so he went SW to cut around it and thought he'd use the tailwind to sail home. Kind of a "best of the available bad options" thing. Perhaps he thought the benefit of the tail wind would over-ride the negative of the sea state the wind would case in the Gulf Stream. If so, he was obviously wrong.

Last edited by ShoalFinder; 02-21-2013 at 02:11 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #1790  
Old 02-21-2013
美国华人, 帆船 教授及输送
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: MD
Posts: 2,446
Thanks: 22
Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts
Rep Power: 8
rockDAWG is on a distinguished road
Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Feb 21 at 3:20 pm.

CG commander said: It took the Helicopter from Elizabeth City to Bounty in 45 min. They had some tail wind too.
__________________

Fine Print:
I am old school. Integrity is to do the right thing even when no one is watching.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Rhodes Bounty ll white rabbit Introduce Yourself 3 07-13-2014 05:00 AM
New Member - Hardin 45 ( 44 voyager bounty ) Bianchi Introduce Yourself 9 01-29-2011 09:33 PM
HELP!! , Need move a boat NC to WA (Rhodes Bounty II, 40'10 x 28' x 10'3" x 5'9") sailandoar General Discussion (sailing related) 1 08-23-2006 01:11 PM
Bounty Windjammer Spectacle (Boothbay Register) NewsReader News Feeds 0 06-23-2006 03:15 PM
April 28, 1789, Aboard the HMS Bounty: NewsReader Mass Bay Sailors 0 04-28-2006 01:15 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:46 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.