HMS Bounty in trouble... - Page 180 - SailNet Community
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post #1791 of 1950 Old 02-21-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

The trade winds are not the factor influencing the speed in any sector. Rather it is the velocity of the path of the storm which adds or subtracts from the wind velocity to give a resultant wind speed.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris_gee View Post
The trade winds are not the factor influencing the speed in any sector. Rather it is the velocity of the path of the storm which adds or subtracts from the wind velocity to give a resultant wind speed.
IT was the CG Chief Commander used the term "tail wind' to describe the relatively fast travel time for their first Helicopter get to the site. I am sure you can educate the CG about the trade winds, velocity of storm and the resultant wind speed etc.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris_gee View Post
“Try again

You theory is completely wrong.”

Well okay that is always possible. It would be more productive if you stated some reasons or basis for your claim.
The implication is that the references you cite do that.

The Lyons article on lopsided waves actually repeats the conventional view that the wind and waves are greatest in the NE sector. He attributes the wave size difference less to the wind difference than the time the waves are exposed to the wind. Fair enough but since the wave speed likely exceeds the track speed waves will continue to be generated on the western side and continue to the south. So that supports my statement

The second reference as to quadrants actually says the same as I did except the sppeds are given in kilometers per hour. So that supports my statement.

The Sun Sentinel graphic shows a path North. It concerns rainfall more than wind. The writer is not apparently a recognised authority and cites none for a view which is at odds with that generally accepted as to the least dangerous quadrant. Sorry I don’t give any weight to a graphic by a reporter .

If I were wrong then so is Bowditch and Buys Ballot's law.
From NOAA by the way they are not reporters.
hurricanes.noaa.gov/pdf/hurricanebook.pdf
Quote:
The Right Side of the Storm
As a general rule of thumb, the hurricane's right
side (relative to the direction it is travelling) is
the most dangerous part of the storm because of
the additive effect of the hurricane wind speed and
speed of the larger atmospheric flow (the steering
winds). The increased winds on the right side
increase the storm surge. Tornadoes are also more
common here.
Quote:
Looking at the figure above, pretend you are
standing behind the hurricane with your back to the
steering flow. In this case, the right side is the
eastern section of the hurricane. (If it were travelling
east to west, the right side would be the north
section.) The winds around the hurricane's eye are
moving in a counterclockwise fashion. At Point A,
the hurricane winds are nearly in line with the
steering wind, adding to the strength of the winds. For example, if the steering currents are 30 mph and the average
hurricane winds are 100 mph, the wind speed would be 130 mph at Point A. On the other hand, the winds at Point B
are moving opposite those of the steering wind and therefore slow to 70 mph (100 - 30 mph). Incidentally, National
Huricane Center forecasts take this effect into account in their official wind estimates.

Application of Buys Ballots Law
The general purpose of the law is to assist steering a vessel away from the center and the right, in the Northern Hemisphere, or left, in the Southern Hemisphere, quadrants of hurricanes or any other rotating disturbance at sea.
Other use is to help establish the probability of the existence of a storm and the best course to steer toavoid the worstof it.
BUYS BALLOT


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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris_gee View Post
The trade winds are not the factor influencing the speed in any sector. Rather it is the velocity of the path of the storm which adds or subtracts from the wind velocity to give a resultant wind speed.
OK, Ive checked my references and you're right.

Quote:
. Why are hurricane wind speeds always the strongest in the forward right quadrant of the storm?

In the forward right quadrant of hurricanes, the storm's forward motion adds to the wind speeds, because they are both in the same direction. Thus if the pressure difference in the forward right quadrant favors a southeast wind at 110 knots, and the storm is moving from southeast to northwest at 25 knots, the actual surface winds will be 135 knots.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

In the northern hemisphere....

http://thenauticalsite.com/nauticaln...sson10-trs.htm
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post
Very interesting article. I guess that is what Capt meant using the term "chasing huricanes". Also the last sentence is interesting:

"If in harbour when a tropical storm approaches, it is preferable to put to sea if this can be done in time to avoid the worst of the storm. Riding out a tropical storm, the centre of which passes within 50 miles or so, in a harbour or anchorage, even if some shelter is offered, is an unpleasant and hazardous experience, especially if there are other ships in company. Even if berthed alongside, or if special moorings are used, a ship cannot feel entirely secure. "
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

This afternoon, they called First Mate John Svendsen on the stand again. He said that he has a private discussion with the Captain to take Bounty to Bermuda or other safe port in LIS. The Captain said no.

Later they asked if you leave the ship, would the Captain take the boat to the sea. He said YES.

I have observed this Young man John for more than a week. He is abright young man and good sailor, well composed. He will be a good captain with a bright future. I wish him the best.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
Very interesting article. I guess that is what Capt meant using the term "chasing huricanes". Also the last sentence is interesting:

"If in harbour when a tropical storm approaches, it is preferable to put to sea if this can be done in time to avoid the worst of the storm. Riding out a tropical storm, the centre of which passes within 50 miles or so, in a harbour or anchorage, even if some shelter is offered, is an unpleasant and hazardous experience, especially if there are other ships in company. Even if berthed alongside, or if special moorings are used, a ship cannot feel entirely secure. "
That's been proven true many times in many situations over many years, but the big assumption in that statement is that the ship in question is seaworthy enough to actually put to sea in a storm in the first place.

Given that a basic requirement for seaworthiness must surely be that the bilge pumps work, it would appear from the outcome that the "Bounty" wasn't...
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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Originally Posted by rockDAWG View Post
This afternoon, they called First Mate John Svendsen on the stand again. He said that he has a private discussion with the Captain to take Bounty to Bermuda or other safe port in LIS. The Captain said no.

Later they asked if you leave the ship, would the Captain take the boat to the sea. He said YES.

I have observed this Young man John for more than a week. He is abright young man and good sailor, well composed. He will be a good captain with a bright future. I wish him the best.
Yes today puts an end to all of this.

First mate today seemed to be more truthful then before, and even trown the Captain under the bus, as on the first day he was saying he doesn't see a problem with sailing in to the hurricane, today he said he told captain many times not to do it and stay in port or go to Bermuda.

I don't think he will make a good captain - he was the 2nd in command and didn't do anything to stop a boat from _sailing directly in to a Cat II going against Gulf stream_

Also CG said they were not contacted directly by Bounty, no Mayday was issued. Only the plane picked up a request to evacuate (by some accounts)
CG in charge didn't know they declared an emergency. CG asked them to enable EPIRB not the other way around.

CG had an email from Captain reading "Ship is doing _great_, but we can't evacuate water"

Which confused CG a lot, as they didn't understand how the ship could be great if it is sinking.

Also CG recieved info over VHF from bounty "we are taking 2 feet of water an hour, green water over the bow gets in to bilges" no capacity to pump out.

Winds were 90!! MPH.. Eye of the hurricane..

Waves are reported at 20-40' powerful enough to broach the 120' LOD Bounty replica.

I don't know what you thinking, but I think this story should be one taught to every Captain of what NOT TO DO from start to finish, almost every person and system failed on that ship. Some of them said they didn't know they were sailing in to a hurricane.

Thanks goes to the USCG for showing us how to run air and sea ships and systems in a hurricane!

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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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Today one of the deckhands testified that captain gave 30 minutes to decide if they want to go or not........
Did they say what the alternative was? Bus fare home or just take your $hit and git?

Really, this wasn't giving the crew any decision at all, let alone factor in the peer pressure.

What I'm finding very interesting is how the testimony is so closely corroborating the consensus of information that was being posted shortly after the event. For sure, there was some exaggeration, but it didn't seem that hard to identify. The basic overall picture of what happened and why was remarkably correct, given the unofficial nature of the internet. It's like Wikipedia's model, where it was once thought you need an official building full of fact checkers to publish an encyclopedia. This forums analysis of events seems to prove their point. Not 100% accurate, but pretty darn close. Perhaps as close as anything official ever actually gets.


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