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  #1801  
Old 02-21-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt.Mhack View Post
I don't think he will make a good captain - he was the 2nd in command and didn't do anything to stop a boat from _sailing directly in to a Cat II going against Gulf stream_
I hear what you are saying. However, I am not as critical as you when I look at this young man. What he experienced on the Bounty and thru the hurricane will propel his sailing career. I do not concern about what you have done or not done. He is a smart fellow, he will think and learn from the mistakes committed in Bounty.

What could he do, especially he said that if he walked out, the captain would take the boat out to the sea.

Not surprisingly, he already has captain positions lining up for him which is much better pay than on any of the tall ships.
Of course, YMMV.
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  #1802  
Old 02-21-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt.Mhack View Post
....

First mate today seemed to be more truthful then before, and even trown the Captain under the bus, as on the first day he was saying he doesn't see a problem with sailing in to the hurricane, today he said he told captain many times not to do it and stay in port or go to Bermuda.

I don't think he will make a good captain - he was the 2nd in command and didn't do anything to stop a boat from _sailing directly in to a Cat II going against Gulf stream_

...
I think you are being hard on him. If he tried to persuade his Captain to take shelter several times and the Captain didn't accept the suggestion, the only other option to him was to leave the ship. He said that the Captain with or without him would sail the Ship to the pass of an Hurricane so I guess he could fell responsible regarding the crew.

He was one of the few with experience and if they were taking a huge risk, without his help on board the risk would even be bigger. Not an easy choice for him. I don't see that he had much of an option out of try to lead an insurrection against the Captain and his decision and the Captain was very respected, almost revered by all, so little chance to succeed with that.

Regards

Paulo
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  #1803  
Old 02-21-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
What I'm finding very interesting is how the testimony is so closely corroborating the consensus of information that was being posted shortly after the event. For sure, there was some exaggeration, but it didn't seem that hard to identify. The basic overall picture of what happened and why was remarkably correct, given the unofficial nature of the internet. It's like Wikipedia's model, where it was once thought you need an official building full of fact checkers to publish an encyclopedia. This forums analysis of events seems to prove their point. Not 100% accurate, but pretty darn close. Perhaps as close as anything official ever actually gets.
Funny I dont see it quite that way completely

Even a blindfolded person will hit a piniada or a dartboard, especially of you stand them in front of it and point them in the correct direction

Maybe we should bring all the future plane crashes to the internet and let the posters tell us why it happend through their speculations

While some of the basic premises were talked about. They were speculative.
Many rushed to judgement immediately/ The fact later they were proven correct on some of their assumptions doesnt mean rushing to judgement is a prudent way to proceed on things. There has to be some kind of balance between opinions and those opinions proven to be facts.

As the thread continued and the true facts came out gradually many of the initial opinions and statements modified/ moderated some and some were even disproved. This is a normal and natural progression I have found and to be expected. Those who were castigated by others not to rush to judgement were proven correct also. Its great so many people of so many differing ways of approaching issues have posted as it gives a better overall product.

To me it reflects this imperfect anaolgy. We have a dinner at 5 PM for our club in a marina restaurant 20 miles away. Both PB and sailboaters attending.

The PB group plot their course...a straight run of 1.5 hours and leave at 1PM.
They fly over and they get there for dinner at 5 having been in their slips in the marina since 4 PM and have had happy hour. Saw very little of the bay, the wind, the conditons, but they got to the destinations

The SB group look at the wind direction and realize they must tack as it dead upwind and leave at 10 PM. They slowly tack their way experiences the sun, wind, waves, birds, have lunch enoy and experience the nature of the whole sailing experience of the trip. They get there at 3. Anchor out raft and have Happy hour and get to dinner at 5.

They both got to dinner at 5. While at the table the SB is talking to the PB and says did you see the Eagles, the crab pots, the winds, the beauty of the sun on the water, the tranquility of the sail over. The PB said nope, but we got here just the same. And yes they did, they both got there.

While we all got to many of the same conclusions at the end, some took a longer direction. If the prize is just the conclusion, well both won and acheived it. One gets there with more experiences and the other just gets there and gets to learn as many of the experiences as the others care to share with them. Both remain happy.

So Minnie is thats your point, I am glad that you are happy that you have been proven correct and you got there right away. I too am happy. Happy that my mind was open to learning that its been journey and that I hopefully didnt prejudge everything ( thats almost impossible), and that I learned along the way.

This thread has been very informative to me, in spite of the various heated opinions/ accusations etc. I have posted more on this thread than others by many times and sometimes have felt I was in a monority. My plodding way of approaching this and mistrust of what I may see initially until I look it through thoroughly reflects the way I deal with issues when I have the time avalable. I have no trouble maing instantaneous opinions or decisions when that is needed.

I have learned more about TS than I ever knew.
More about CG liscences than I ever knew,
More about the people who sail these vessels from the well financed ones to the shoestring budget ones than I ever knew.
More about the mentality and love of the people on these vessels than I ever knew.
I have watched the testimony and find very little said before in this thread about the boatbuilder and true conditions of the Bounty infrastructure except from Mainesail. For that I am glad to hear that testimoiny
I have watched the testimony and been shocked by the absolute lack of sailing experience of the people on this vessel and wonder how pervaisive that is.
I also have been shocked by the lack of experience on technical equipment of the vessel such as pumps, engines and even caulking and maintainence. People in the thread alluded to it, but to the degree the testimony brought it out is staggering to me

I only hope that this will bring enough noteriety and perhaps liscening to this part of the industry, but do not know how that can be accomplshed. I wished people had spoken out about this vessels condition to the CG ahead of time. The Captain...he did the wrong thing. He had a very suspect vessel and left in the face of this storm and then made compounding decisions which sealed her fate. He ruined his reputataion and caused his and Fletchers death and will be held responsible. Someon needs to look at these old wooden vessels more carefully.
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Last edited by chef2sail; 02-21-2013 at 07:08 PM.
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  #1804  
Old 02-21-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
Did they say what the alternative was? Bus fare home or just take your $hit and git?

Really, this wasn't giving the crew any decision at all, let alone factor in the peer pressure.

What I'm finding very interesting is how the testimony is so closely corroborating the consensus of information that was being posted shortly after the event. For sure, there was some exaggeration, but it didn't seem that hard to identify. The basic overall picture of what happened and why was remarkably correct, given the unofficial nature of the internet. It's like Wikipedia's model, where it was once thought you need an official building full of fact checkers to publish an encyclopedia. This forums analysis of events seems to prove their point. Not 100% accurate, but pretty darn close. Perhaps as close as anything official ever actually gets.
This is why they say first impression and gut feel usually are right.
But I couldn't even imagine in my worst nightmare what reality was..

The captain had a one on one with chief mate where CM was urging Capt to stay, go upriver or Bermuda. Capt said that he feels _very strongly_ (made a decision) and told CM to start prep. CM testified he advised Capt to tell the crew of this.

During that meeting that CM called, Captain basically said "there is a weather system", "it might get rough", "you know I and Bounty always made it", "if you don't feel like it you can leave (quit)"..
He didn't say Sandy, Superstorm or any of the words to specify the size of the "Weather"

Nobody spoke up so captain ordered (on the spot) to start prep to sail.
In 30 mins they were off.

CG noted that this paints Captain as a "dictator" with now team input or discussion allowed.
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  #1805  
Old 02-21-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt.Mhack View Post
This is why they say first impression and gut feel usually are right.
But I couldn't even imagine in my worst nightmare what reality was..

The captain had a one on one with chief mate where CM was urging Capt to stay, go upriver or Bermuda. Capt said that he feels _very strongly_ (made a decision) and told CM to start prep. CM testified he advised Capt to tell the crew of this.

During that meeting that CM called, Captain basically said "there is a weather system", "it might get rough", "you know I and Bounty always made it", "if you don't feel like it you can leave (quit)"..
He didn't say Sandy, Superstorm or any of the words to specify the size of the "Weather"

Nobody spoke up so captain ordered (on the spot) to start prep to sail.
In 30 mins they were off.

CG noted that this paints Captain as a "dictator" with now team input or discussion allowed.
Just a question did you watch the testimony? Did you hear this said?
Quote:
CG noted that this paints Captain as a "dictator" with now team input or discussion allowed
I watched the tesimony

BTW
Quote:
This is why they say first impression and gut feel usually are right
They also say dont judge a book by its cover

Every glib quote has an equal and opposite glib quote from the alternative universe.
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Last edited by chef2sail; 02-21-2013 at 07:17 PM.
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  #1806  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockDAWG View Post
I hear what you are saying. However, I am not as critical as you when I look at this young man. What he experienced on the Bounty and thru the hurricane will propel his sailing career. I do not concern about what you have done or not done. He is a smart fellow, he will think and learn from the mistakes committed in Bounty.

What could he do, especially he said that if he walked out, the captain would take the boat out to the sea.

Not surprisingly, he already has captain positions lining up for him which is much better pay than on any of the tall ships.
Of course, YMMV.
Honestly would you sit idly by even if you were a passanger on Bounty and just watched how the ship sailed in to Cat II? I know I wouldn't..

I wish it would turn out like you hope, I hope so too, but IMHO I think he is not cut to be a captain, do we need to wait for him to put 4000 people on a cruise liner in to a storm? And then say "I don't recal why we've changed course?" like he did?

I'm sorry, I don't think he is a good captain.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I think you are being hard on him. If he tried to persuade his Captain to take shelter several times and the Captain didn't accept the suggestion, the only other option to him was to leave the ship. He said that the Captain with or without him would sail the Ship to the pass of an Hurricane so I guess he could fell responsible regarding the crew.

He was one of the few with experience and if they were taking a huge risk, without his help on board the risk would even be bigger. Not an easy choice for him. I don't see that he had much of an option out of try to lead an insurrection against the Captain and his decision and the Captain was very respected, almost revered by all, so little chance to succeed with that.

Regards

Paulo
I would have picked up a SatPhone and called CG.. in what reality a sail in a leaking ship to a center of CatII with inop bilge system is a remotely ok proposition??

He is directly responsible for people's death as second in command, if he stopped their south progress towards the eye of the hurricane people would be still alive.. it's not a walk in a park, it was his job.

CG asked him repeatedly about "Hurricane Avoidance" classes he took..

p.s. Inop bilge system was reported to officers on Thursday before they set sail.
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Old 02-21-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
Did they say what the alternative was? Bus fare home or just take your $hit and git?

Really, this wasn't giving the crew any decision at all, let alone factor in the peer pressure.
Just a direct question. Had you been The second in command...what would YOU have done? Had you been crew?

Not really interested in what they did or thier influences. If you were in this situation. What would you do knowing the condition of the ship and the hurricane impending?

I have a feeking I know, but I must ask. I also bet we would do the same thing.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Just a question did you watch the testimony? Did you hear this said?

I watched the tesimony

BTW

They also say dont judge a book by its cover

Every glib quote has an equal and opposite glib quote from the alternative universe.
Yes I watched every day.

They pinned CM today on why he was describing Captain as being this "every meeting a teaching experience" while in reality, the only fact they have that the most important meeting, collaborated by 13 people, he didn't have the discussion, no questions, no information given.. "take it or leave it" same was done for the course change to West.
CM had no answer for this.. just said if captain was very smart (played chess 5 people at once) but if captain made up his mind that was it..
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

My point is - we should be hard on this guy, and we should be hard on ourselfs, don't gamble with the sea, respect it! Be a professional.

I was just doing a yacht delivery on Sunday, it was "Small craft advisory", 10' seas and 40kts winds.. I called my Captain and insisted on not going. We delivered later when conditions allowed. I think watching this hearing helped me improve myself.
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Last edited by Capt.Mhack; 02-21-2013 at 07:43 PM.
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