HMS Bounty in trouble... - Page 182 - SailNet Community

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  #1811  
Old 02-21-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Not really interested in what they did or thier influences. If you were in this situation. What would you do knowing the condition of the ship and the hurricane impending?
I know what I would do, I will walk because I am old and have thick skin and I don't care much about peer pressure.

However, these young men and young women are so in love with he boat and the captain. I don't think they knew what is coming. I remember Laura said in her testimony when Bounty sailed from Booth Bay to New London, the pump kicked on every 20 minutes. When sailing to south into Sandy, the pumps were on consistently. The crews did not find it abnormal, becasue the captain said, it is a wooden boat.

I guess Love is blind.
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  #1812  
Old 02-21-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Age and inexperience plays a part, too.

There's a reason you join the military when you are 18. Well, several reasons. You are young, healthy, and your body can actually put up with the strain (the obvious reason) but the second reason is that when you are 40 and given an idiotic directive, you would shake your head and say, "No f'n way. That is a a stupid idea."

As we age we are more prepared to accept consequences rather than rush headlong into things. The difference is we learn to shape our own consequences. If you are 20 and broke when your captain tells you that he is going to sail into a hurricane on a rotten boat and you can quit now if you don't like it- you say, "Man. I need this job. I don't know how else I'll get home. And if I do, they'll know I bailed out and nobody will give me another TS crew gig."

When you are forty, you say, "Captain, I want you to reconsider. I'm happy to crew for you but we need to find a better course or else I simply cannot go. I love this ship, but I will not die for it. It's a great boat and all, but it's a boat. And it's insured."
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  #1813  
Old 02-21-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt.Mhack View Post
I would have picked up a SatPhone and called CG.. in what reality a sail in a leaking ship to a center of CatII with inop bilge system is a remotely ok proposition??

He is directly responsible for people's death as second in command, if he stopped their south progress towards the eye of the hurricane people would be still alive.. it's not a walk in a park, it was his job.

....
You are my hero. I don't know what I have done but I can tell you that almost nobody in his position would have the guts to do what you say. I participated in a revolution and I was among the ones that actually did act and actually fight to make it happen. After the revolution the ones that wanted to take the more drastic measures against the ones that were previously in power, the ones that were making more noise, were the ones that had not the guts to do nothing to change their rule. Yes, it easy to talk

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Last edited by PCP; 02-21-2013 at 09:13 PM.
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  #1814  
Old 02-21-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShoalFinder View Post
... If you are 20 and broke when your captain tells you that he is going to sail into a hurricane on a rotten boat and you can quit now if you don't like it- you say, "Man. I need this job. I don't know how else I'll get home. And if I do, they'll know I bailed out and nobody will give me another TS crew gig."

When you are forty, you say, "Captain, I want you to reconsider. I'm happy to crew for you but we need to find a better course or else I simply cannot go. I love this ship, but I will not die for it. It's a great boat and all, but it's a boat. And it's insured."
I guess you are missing a point. Maybe if he was a sailor he could just say: "the hell with it, I am not going to risk my live, I quit."

But he is second in Command, tried to change the Captain judgement about sailing, he knows that he is going to sail with or without him, he knows that the crew revers the Captain and that it will go with him no matter what he does. He knows that he is one of the few with experience and that the chances to make it without him would be a lot smaller and he risks his life to give a better chance to the crew.

As Nolaton had pointed out, if the pumps were working 100%, if they had no problems at all, if they were lucky, as they were before, they may even have gotten away with it... one more time.... and his presence could be determinant to save the crew.

The time to quit would be after contributing to put the ship to safety (it turned out impossible) or immediately after the accident. I don't know if he was pressured not to do it, I don't know how much involved he was with that romantic connection with the Bounty's "family" and crew. It is hard to judge others when the involvement is not a rational one but an emotional one: They all considered Bounty to be their home and they were in love with the Ship.

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Last edited by PCP; 02-21-2013 at 09:47 PM.
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  #1815  
Old 02-21-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Ain't hindsight a wonderful thing...

Emotions included, I seriously doubt any of them, captain or crew, would have left the dock if they thought for even a few seconds that they wouldn't make it. This is a sailing ship in a storm, not an amusement park ride.

Was it common knowledge there were doubts about the soundness of the hull (probably irrelevant in the end anyway)? Was it common knowledge the pumps didn't work? No.. I don't think so.

As we say over here, "$hit happens".. but mix in a slice of poor judgement, a dash of over-confidence and a few well-intentioned mistakes and the result is well known to all.
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Last edited by Classic30; 02-21-2013 at 10:20 PM.
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  #1816  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I guess you are missing a point. Maybe if he was a sailor he could just say: "the hell with it, I am not going to risk my live, I quit."

But he is second in Command, tried to change the Captain judgement about sailing, he knows that he is going to sail with or without him, he knows that the crew revers the Captain and that it will go with him no matter what he does. He knows that he is one of the few with experience and that the chances to make it without him would be a lot smaller and he risks his life to give a better chance to the crew.

You make a very good point, and that is a very fair criticism of what I said.

As the Chief Mate, perhaps it was the only decision he could make if he thought it was up to him to protect those who went out to sea. However, I don't think he saw it as a suicide mission based on the bits of testimony I have read. However much I praise his loyalty, perhaps his dissent and departure would have had more impact to change the captain's mind.
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  #1817  
Old 02-21-2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartley18 View Post
Ain't hindsight a wonderful thing...

Emotions included, I seriously doubt any of them, captain or crew, would have left the dock if they thought for even a few seconds that they wouldn't make it. This is a sailing ship in a storm, not an amusement park ride.

Was it common knowledge there were doubts about the soundness of the hull (probably irrelevant in the end anyway)? Was it common knowledge the pumps didn't work? No.. I don't think so.

As we say over here, "$hit happens".. but mix in a slice of poor judgement, a dash of over-confidence and a few well-intentioned mistakes and the result is well known to all.
Well based on the testimony some said it was known that Bounty has a bad reputation.

It was known by the officers and the captain the pumps not 1 out of 5 didn't work as expected.

These 2 facts make it a suicide mission.

CM silence to the crew didn't help them understand the risks.

I think CM had every opportunity to dissent, leave or at least call the CG when this was going down.

Technically they were supposed to notify CG on generator and bilge failures.

We can slice it for 100 more pages, their actions are pretty clear now.

I think that's actually the biggest problem that his officers were afraid/unwilling to challenge his reckless plan.


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  #1818  
Old 02-22-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt.Mhack View Post
Well based on the testimony some said it was known that Bounty has a bad reputation.

It was known by the officers and the captain the pumps not 1 out of 5 didn't work as expected.

These 2 facts make it a suicide mission.

CM silence to the crew didn't help them understand the risks.

I think CM had every opportunity to dissent, leave or at least call the CG when this was going down.

Technically they were supposed to notify CG on generator and bilge failures.

We can slice it for 100 more pages, their actions are pretty clear now.

I think that's actually the biggest problem that his officers were afraid/unwilling to challenge his reckless plan.


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Good points

Sorry I had to do this to get this blowhard his 5000 ( probably 200 on this thread) post. Cant beleive I have survived that long without either being banned or shout away.
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Last edited by chef2sail; 02-22-2013 at 12:32 AM.
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  #1819  
Old 02-22-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Congratulations, C2F!!

That and a buck-fifty probably won't get you a cup of coffee even in your part of the world...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt.Mhack View Post
Well based on the testimony some said it was known that Bounty has a bad reputation.

It was known by the officers and the captain the pumps not 1 out of 5 didn't work as expected.

These 2 facts make it a suicide mission.

CM silence to the crew didn't help them understand the risks.

I think CM had every opportunity to dissent, leave or at least call the CG when this was going down.

Technically they were supposed to notify CG on generator and bilge failures.

We can slice it for 100 more pages, their actions are pretty clear now.

I think that's actually the biggest problem that his officers were afraid/unwilling to challenge his reckless plan.
Well I guess we'll soon know if you're right once the investigation is complete. I'm still not convinced the bilge pump failures were as widely known amongst the officers and crew as you suggest - because if they did, unless the entire crew were a bunch of mindless lemmings, surely we wouldn't be talking about it now.

The absence of so much as a "Pan-Pan" call once the water started rising, has me puzzled though..
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Last edited by Classic30; 02-22-2013 at 01:32 AM.
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  #1820  
Old 02-22-2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartley18 View Post
Congratulations, C2F!!

That and a buck-fifty probably won't get you a cup of coffee even in your part of the world...



Well I guess we'll soon know if you're right once the investigation is complete. I'm still not convinced the bilge pump failures were as widely known amongst the officers and crew as you suggest - because if they did, unless the entire crew were a bunch of mindless lemmings, surely we wouldn't be talking about it now.

The absence of so much as a "Pan-Pan" call once the water started rising, has me puzzled though..
It's not me, I'm basing it on one of the deckhand testimony, CG asked him twice if he was saying he reported above normal water level/ electric pumps not keeping up on Thursday before they set sailed, to the engineer and the officer of his watch.
Both pumps were fitted with PSI gauges and showed about 60-70% less pressure than usual.

Deckhand confirmed that twice.

Captain said he will think about it. CM later testified he followed up with captain and captain told him he thinks the pumps were fine.

Interesting CM testified that Captain himself brought up the rot (!) in the bounty hull when the ship was in the heavy weather, and suggested to CM it will not matter, hull will be ok. CM claims he didn't know about rot util that conversation with the captain.

BTW even Claudine was texting about pumps not working - that has to tell you something as no Pan Pan even, by the CG officer in charge testimony, official Mayday, was not called.

First time CG learned about Bounty problem was from the Tracy Simonin (sp) of Bounty org, not anybody on the ship.

I wish I'm wrong, but the testimony was pretty damning.
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Last edited by Capt.Mhack; 02-22-2013 at 01:47 AM.
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