HMS Bounty in trouble... - Page 183 - SailNet Community

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Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > Vessels Lost, Missing, or in Danger
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  #1821  
Old 02-22-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt.Mhack View Post
It's not me, I'm basing it on one of the deckhand testimony, CG asked him twice if he was saying he reported above normal water level/ electric pumps not keeping up on Thursday before they set sailed, to the engineer and the officer of his watch.

Deckhand confirmed that twice.

Captain said he will think about it. CM later testified he followed up with captain and captain told him he thinks the pumps were fine.

BTW even Claudine was texting about pumps not working - that has to tell you something as no Pan Pan even, by the CG officer in charge testimony, official Mayday, was not called.

First time CG learned about Bounty problem was from the Tracy Simonin (sp) of Bounty org, not anybody on the ship.

I wish I'm wrong, but the testimony was pretty damning.
This is true. Very damning. Had they at least notified the CG early on say off the coast of Jersey they migh have been lifted pumps like in the past or been escorted in a more protected area like the Delaware or Norfolk.

I cant understand continuoing on with the pumps not working correctly or keeping up as they knew even far enough in advance once underway and could have made a break for it.

Dave
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  #1822  
Old 02-22-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
.......So Minnie is thats your point, I am glad that you are happy that you have been proven correct and you got there right away. ........
While I would love to leave it at that, I never made the point that I was right. I made the point that the consensus was right and reject it being a blind squirrel analogy. There was much news feed, personal observation of the ship, TS community input, etc that lead to the consensus conclusion. You had the right to reject all of it until the official investigation. I am amazed that a community of internet posters really could sort out the wheat from the chafe without one. There was plenty of extreme accusation that was being made at the time, but it was also being debunked by the consensus. Consensus is not defined as unanimous. Consensus was proven correct.

Now for the love of sailing, my friend, try to make your point in under a million words.
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  #1823  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Just a direct question. Had you been The second in command...what would YOU have done? Had you been crew?

Not really interested in what they did or thier influences. If you were in this situation. What would you do knowing the condition of the ship and the hurricane impending?

I have a feeking I know, but I must ask. I also bet we would do the same thing.
Direct answer then. I've seen the crew, I've seen them speak, I've heard direct reference by many on what it was like to be part of that environment.

I wouldn't have ever accepted the position as SIC on that vessel.

Beyond the scrubby look, which isn't my bag, I will use the infamous "chasing hurricanes" media interview as a perfect example. You pick whichever version you like: He was exaggerating....... then I have zero respect for the skipper of that vessel for being a blowhard and not setting proper seamanship discipline. Or, He was telling the truth........ then no freaking way I'm not packed up by the end of the day. I'm not going to be in the leadership structure.

If I had unwittingly found my way into that SIC position, I would have been looking for the first gangway I could find. An incoming hurricane would have been an excuse from the heavens and I would have suggested the same to the rest of the crew.

Had the SIC done so, one would have to believe others would have followed. Would Christine's message home have simply been something to the effect of a tough passage ahead. She was clearly nervous, but had faith in the leadership decision. Or would the SIC having left the boat changed her mind? Although, I suspect the SIC would have been blackballed from another gig had he bailed. Especially, if Bounty made it.
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  #1824  
Old 02-22-2013
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Very hard for me. I work as a contractor on Capitol Hill and the government likes everything explained and vetted 6 ways from Sunday.

And to think at one time I was a chef and only used four letter words
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  #1825  
Old 02-22-2013
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I totally agree with you.

Break out the margaritas
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  #1826  
Old 02-22-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
An incoming hurricane would have been an excuse from the heavens and I would have suggested the same to the rest of the crew.

Had the SIC done so, one would have to believe others would have followed.
People often don't understand courage. they think its all about some war time situation, or running some race in the Olympics. But courage is the thing that good, honest people need to stand up for themselves, and others, at times.

He didnt show the courage that he needed to.... He may have been corageous in the storm, but not in allowing the ship to leave port with him onboard.

Yes, the others would have followed him off the boat. If all had then none could have been sacked. But leaving the ship would have meant looking for another 'dream of a lifetime job'.
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Last edited by MarkofSeaLife; 02-22-2013 at 09:17 AM.
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  #1827  
Old 02-22-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt.Mhack View Post
Well based on the testimony some said it was known that Bounty has a bad reputation.

It was known by the officers and the captain the pumps not 1 out of 5 didn't work as expected.

These 2 facts make it a suicide mission.

...
I would not say a suicide mission.. Nobody there thought that they were going to die, Some thought it was risky but risky means not suicidal and means always that one thinks that there are more changes to succeed than to fail.

You are looking at it from the outside. That boat had a bad reputation among the Tall ship crews. For the Crew of that boat the Captain was a hero, and the Bounty could take anything and "liked Hurricanes".

When we talk about a suicide mission it is implied that the one that is on that mission knows that he is going to die. They thought too much about their boat and their captain. They revere and trust the Captain's decisions and if he says that the Bounty is safer on the sea than in the Port, than it should be true. If the Captain decides to sail an Hurricane, then he knows what he is doing. This is not clearly a suicide mission.

Remember that the Crew is very inexperienced and only the more experienced mate questioned privately the Captain regarding his option. Along this thread several testimony made clear that the crew did not fully know the condition of the boat neither the one of the pumping systems. Remember that they did not even know that a major Hurricane was on the way (as it was made clear before). That is how inexperienced they were.

The only one that should and was aware of the boat condition, including pumping systems and lack of training with them, was the Captain. But I don't believe that even the Captain was on a suicide mission. He had a big ego and thought that he would manage to pull it one more time. I am sure he thought that it was risky but that he would succeed in bringing the boat back to port. He was gambling but thought that the bigger odds were with him.

Off course a Captain does not gamble with the lives of others, that is intrinsically wrong. A captain should not take any considerable risk gambling that he probably will make it if there is a significant possibility of not making it...and that was clearly the case.

As I have saying from the beginning the responsibility for this accident is on the Captain. An additional responsibility can be found if it was proved that the Captain was coerced or convinced by the owner to take this voyage at this particular date for financial motives. That does not diminish Captain's responsibility but will add responsibility to another party. The owner had taken the 5th and I have not seen evidence yet that it was clearly the case. That it does not mean that it had not happen, only that it was not proven yet.

I don't think that will come out of this inquiry and it would be very important to establish liability.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 02-22-2013 at 10:15 AM.
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  #1828  
Old 02-22-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

A few questions and comments in my head:

1. I was surprised that the Committee did not ask the wife of the captain to testify.
2. Does the Captain have any life insurance?
3. How much insurance does Bounty carry?
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  #1829  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

I understand from earlier reading that Bounty did not have a Certificate of Inspection from the Coast Guard.

Wasn't aware whether or not the was "in class" with ABS, LR, DNV or whomever? I take it, not?

Anyone know if the other tall ships are 'classed'? To me, having ABS involved, especially with a unique (wood) vessel with lots of cladding covering the ribs and frames, would give me a much better feeling than a vessel inspected by, uh, no one?
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  #1830  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Its funny I am incredulous that people say the crew didnt know the hurricane was coming. They were getting texts from all their friends and loved ones and everyone on the east coast starting the previous Sunday started watching the storm Oct 24 when it ewas classified as a hurricane and started its trip north. The European model had it pegged from the beginning to come up the coast and them turn west into the land. It took a couple days but the American model agreed. I knew I might be in trouble in Maryland long before the Bounty slipped its lines and started preparing as did olthers in my area in Maryland.

What I agree is that they really didnt understand what that meant, how bad the ship was and placed trust in each other and the Captain. To say they didnt know doesnt seem plausable.
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