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  #1841  
Old 02-22-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt.Mhack View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP
Maybe I stated it badly. I was referring what they had said themselves and was published previously in the press. I did not meant to say that when they sailed that they had not been informed about the Hurricane. What I meant to say is that they had not been aware of its importance till some hours before and some not even after that reunion. Barksdale says "Nobody knew that it was going to have the intensity and size it ended up having" .


His testimony is highly suspect.. others testified that the Captain didn't have a plan, he just said I know you were getting texts, there is a weather system, we will go east offshore - and then decide what to do. I and Bounty always made it.

That's it. "Don't worry" talk.

...
I guess you did not understood what I have posted and said. The plan that seemed acceptable for the crew was presented by the Captain before the boat sailed away. This plan that was reported months ago by Barksdale was heard and confirmed by sources that did not belong to the Bounty's crew.

I don't think that the crew would be sailing out of of port with an Hurricane coming if the captain did not give them a pretty good idea that he knew what he was doing.

That was what Barksdale reported to the press months ago. This report and what the Captain said it was is intention to do and sailing plan was also reported independently by another credible witness, confirming what Barksdale said.

That has not to do with what he have done after while sailing. In fact he started doing what he had said he was going to do and then changed course. He did not explain to anybody why he was doing so.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 02-22-2013 at 06:12 PM.
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  #1842  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
I totally agree with you.

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  #1843  
Old 02-22-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

I have only watched a little of the CG investigation, and read most of the recaps here on SN.

Most have commented the crew was inexperienced.

I watched the testimony by the young lady (deck hand with 100 Ton license) and I was pretty impressed by her experience and how she delt calmly with the abandoning of the ship. I would not call her inexperienced. She also seems to be able to deal with mechanical issues quite well.

Did anyone see what her thoughts were on leaving port and trying to skirt Sandy?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockDAWG View Post
Just find out that Youtube has all the footage of the Hearing. So if anyone did not have a chance to watch the steaming of the hearing. Here is your opprotnity:

http://www.youtube.com/results?searc....0...0.0...1ac.
Perfect, now everyone can see for themselves what exactly was said!

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I guess you did not understood what I have posted and said. The plan that seemed acceptable for the crew was presented by the Captain before the boat sailed away. This plan that was reported months ago by Barksdale was heard and confirmed by sources that did not belong to the Bounty's crew.

I don't think that the crew would be sailing out of of port with an Hurricane coming if the captain did not give them a pretty good idea that he knew what he was doing.

That was what Barksdale reported to the press months ago. This report and what the Captain said it was is intention to do and sailing plan was also reported independently by another credible witness, confirming what Barksdale said.

That has not to do with what he have done after while sailing. In fact he started doing what he had said he was going to do and then changed course. He did not explain to anybody why he was doing so.

Regards

Paulo
I don't think we are far apart on this. My point that hr made it seem like he had a plan in reality for some reason he just wanted to go and had no plan. Look at day 6 testimony from CM..

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
I have only watched a little of the CG investigation, and read most of the recaps here on SN.

Most have commented the crew was inexperienced.

I watched the testimony by the young lady (deck hand with 100 Ton license) and I was pretty impressed by her experience and how she delt calmly with the abandoning of the ship. I would not call her inexperienced. She also seems to be able to deal with mechanical issues quite well.

Did anyone see what her thoughts were on leaving port and trying to skirt Sandy?
She was better than others but couldn't answer or didn't know some basic questions.

Last edited by Capt.Mhack; 02-22-2013 at 06:54 PM.
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  #1845  
Old 02-23-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCC320 View Post
As I understand it, the square riggers needed to run with the wind and generally couldn't beat into the wind very well. There have been numerous questions as to why Bounty went from a SE course to SW. A hurricane rotates counterclock wise. So initially, ship would have likely had winds from E or NE since it was ahead of the storm and to the west of the eye track. As the ship moved more east and south, eventually at some point it would be to the east of the eye track. At this point the winds would increasingly come from the SE, then S. So this would mean that ship was increasingly heading directly against the wind, which is an impossible situation for a square rigger. But if the ship could stay to the west of the eye track, the winds would increasingly come from NE, then N, which would be suitable for running before the wind on a SW course. So, unless he were to change to a more northerly course, the captain didn't have much choice except to turn SW. If the pumps had been pumping at their rated capacity, they still might have made it despite that they would have had to contend with the Gulf Stream, and the unique feature of this particular storm, wherein it was reported that the highest winds were in the SW quadrant. Once in this quadrant, the storm would be moving away from them after the eye passed to the east and north in any case.
Sometimes I am slow

If you are right about the wind direction and force I guess you nailed one of the things that have been discussed here at length and I only noticed now, I mean why the Captain did not manage to do what he said to the crew he was going to do before sailing.

If you are right he went SE as planned to give space to the hurricane to pass between him and land but soon discovered that the winds ahead of the Hurricane, frontal winds, were this time to strong to permit him to make any decent way. As you say these ships do not point well and the engines had not the power to make it against a strong wind and waves, not to mention that the ship should be pounding heavily.

So he went till where he thought it was possible and then with the ship not doing any significant speed and taking a lot of stress, decided to do the only thing he could, turn the boat to the better sailing position regarding the wind and waves, minimizing the stress on the boat and gaining speed.

That explains why nobody new very well to what course they were steering the ship: They were in survival mode and steering in a way to get the less possible stress on the boat, according with the wind and wave directions, vaguely SW.

Bad luck with the wind and wave direction forced them to those bad waters near that cape and even so they only capsized when the boat was full of water. The captain had put himself in a situation that he had no choice.

As NCC320 says, if the boat was in sound condition, not making so much water, if the pumps were working at their max rating speed, if they did not have lost and engine over an accident, if the crew was trained to serve the pups, if the set up of the pumps was correct, if they had a professional crew, they could have made it and even so it would be a risky situation that should be avoided at any cost by any Captain.

Just to see if NCC320 is right with this possibility: Has anybody any means to determine the overground speed the Bounty was making SE immediately before turning to SW?

Regards

Paulo
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  #1846  
Old 02-23-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post

Just to see if NCC320 is right with this possibility: Has anybody any means to determine the overground speed the Bounty was making SE immediately before turning to SW?

Regards

Paulo
Perhaps even more revealing would be a time plot of track with positions of the hurricane and the Bounty, with windspeed and direction at each ship position. Traditionally, these storms most often come ashore on the southeast coast of US (Florida, Georgia, S. Carolina, N. Carolina) and lose much of their force in doing so before continuing north, either on-shore, or off -shore. But this storm was different, both in track and size. Bounty may have not yet reached the point to where it could no longer maintain a SE course before changing to SW...it could have been that the captain realized with additional weather reports that the storm was bigger than anticipated and that the track was holding more northerly at that point before turning west to go ashore. If so, then he may have realized what was going to happen regarding wind direction...i.e. on east side of track the winds would start shifting more to SE, S, and against direction of travel. Also, if ship could not gain sufficient eastward position, then the ship was going to be in the NE quadrant close to the eye, where winds are usually the highest...the most dangerous semicircle and dangerous quadrant. So perhaps better to change early and go for the SW before the situation got increasing worse, and making adjusting sails even more dangerous. Hurricanes are consistent in wind rotation (except for localized tornado action within the storm), and if ship got on the east side of the eye, then they would be increasingly against head winds on southerly course.

Last edited by NCC320; 02-23-2013 at 10:32 AM.
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  #1847  
Old 02-23-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Day 7 hearing from gCaptain just released.

Here is the short quote from gCaptain. He summarized well.

==================
Svendsen and Walbridge appeared to do all of the hiring of crew for the HMS Bounty Organization. Walbridge had decades at sea. Svendsen had worked tall ships prior to Bounty. The rest of the crew- so far it seems – had an experience base of one:

The third mate, Dan Cleveland (25), came aboard from a career in landscaping. Bounty was his first wooden tall ship.

The Bosun, Laura Groves (28), had experience on smaller boats in the Keys. Bounty was her first wooden tall ship.

Joshua Scornavacchi (25), was on his first wooden tall ship.

Second mate Matt Sanders (37) had worked on a series of ships, including the schooner Margaret Todd, but Bounty was (wait for it) his first wooden tall ship.

Testifying Wednesday morning was Anna Sprague (20); of course it was her first wooden tall ship.

Claudene Christian (42) , was on her first wooden tall ship.

When the new cook, Jessica Black (34), put on her immersion suit to abandon ship on the 29th of October, she had been aboard Bounty – her first wooden tall ship – for a grand total of 45 hours.

Walbridge and Svendsen had hired a crew – including several ships officers – who wouldn’t know any better. When they were told that “a ship is safer at sea,” and that “all wood boats leak*,” they had to believe it. They had learned everything they knew about their jobs from their captain and from each other. They were “professionally deficient” and didn’t even know it.

(* – All wood boats may leak a little, but all wood boats do not require constant bilge pumping.)


Walbridge often addressed his crew as “Future captains of America.” They all speak of Bounty as a great place to learn and as a school where they would learn from the master, Robin Walbridge.

They were “honored to work for him.” But there has been a theme in the testimony that ”getting better” on Bounty was a substitute for good enough to begin with. The organization didn’t seem to care how little you knew about your job – so long as you were willing to get better, everything was just fine. The sea doesn’t see it that way.

Svendsen questioned Anna Sprague, the youngest Bounty survivor:

Svendsen: “Were you trained well on Bounty?”

Sprague: “Oh yes.”

She was twenty years old and on the first boat she had ever known working for the only mariners she had ever worked for. Honestly, how on earth would she know how well she was trained?
====================

I hope these young men and women have learned their lesson how foolish and naive they were, and almost paid with their life.

Like I said that before. When you are in love (with Bounty and the Captain), You don't see the obvious. You tend to shunt away all the warning signs including those given by your parents and friends who love you dearly.

I spent most of the days listening to the hearing. Although I still have many questions, I am satisfied and able to find closure in this tragedy.

If I were the Captain and knowing that I had caused the sinking the Bounty, will I be man enough to face the court from the lawsuit and hell the I would have brought into my family? It would be an easy way out if I perish with Bounty. The family will move to a new chapter with the life insurance pay out.

I would imagine that the Captain had plenty time to think about his options.

RIP.
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  #1848  
Old 02-23-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockDAWG View Post
...I hope these young men and women have learned their lesson how foolish and naive they were, and almost paid with their life...
I also hope they learned from this close call. But I don't blame them. You can't expect novices (including myself) to "know what they don't know." They're at the mercy of their mentors. It's the responsibility of the captain and other certified crew to guide them appropriately, and in this case they were failed by their ship's leaders. It seems like many of them were merely apprentices, but the boat was staffed in a way that expected them to perform as if they were fully qualified. The responsibility for that deficiency rests with the captain, for he is the one with experience and training to recognize the appropriate balance of experienced crew and apprentices. It was also the responsibility of the Foundation to provide him with adequate funding to hire people with the right level of qualifications, so IMO the Foundation shares blame with him. And if they lacked that funding, they should should have stayed in one place as the "dockside attraction" stated in their certification.

That being said, I am concerned about how some are using their 20-20 hindsight to point blame. Case in point: All those who point fingers because the hurricane was so "very accurately forecast" (to quote Jan Miles' letter). That's a sure sign of hindsight, since you don't know the forecast was accurate until after the fact. I'm not saying that Walbridge should have ignored the forecast. It was clearly arrogant of him to think he knew better than the forecasters with his apparent belief (based on the track that he steered) that the hurricane would continue out to sea on a northwest path.

I am appalled at Jan Miles' self-serving letter. Aside from feeding our never-ending curiosity and letting off some of his own inner rage, what good comes from an open letter to a dead man?

What I want to know is where were all these experts as Bounty was preparing to head out to sea? A place like New London must have had dozens of knowledgeable captains and crew roaming the docks to prepare their craft for the approaching hurricane. They should have been telling Walbridge that he's out of his mind to go out. They should have been doing everything they could to convince Bounty's novice crew to mutiny. A ship that large can't just sneak out of the harbor unseen. They should have hopped into dinghys and followed Bounty though the harbor, yelling through megaphones what a big mistake they were making.

Tall ship captains are a small community that apparently "talks" (voice, text, and digital) among themselves a lot. If any one of them heard about Walbridge's plan ahead of time and didn't forcefully try to convince him otherwise, then they have blood on their hands too.

What also bugs me is the apparent disconnect between Walbridge's arrogance that we hear about now, vs. the reports that he had a "great reputation" before this accident. Which is it? If this tragedy was foretold by his prior history of chasing hurricanes and getting away with it (including a prior USCG rescue when his bilge pumps failed previously), why weren't his "friends" in the tall ship community expressing their concerns to him about his reckless past history? If everyone knew the new planks were nailed onto a rotted frame, why weren't his "friends" ratting out this dangerous vessel? If the tall ship community knew that this "shoreside attraction" was skirting the rules by disguising unqualified passengers as qualified crew, why weren't they protecting their colleagues by reporting them to the authorities?

It seems now like everyone in that community is piling on with their hindsight about how reckless the captain was. Too bad they didn't do a little more piling on before two people lost their lives.
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Old 02-23-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
I also hope they learned from this close call. But I don't blame them. You can't expect novices (including myself) to "know what they don't know." They're at the mercy of their mentors. It's the responsibility of the captain and other certified crew to guide them appropriately, and in this case they were failed by their ship's leaders. It seems like many of them were merely apprentices, but the boat was staffed in a way that expected them to perform as if they were fully qualified. The responsibility for that deficiency rests with the captain, for he is the one with experience and training to recognize the appropriate balance of experienced crew and apprentices. It was also the responsibility of the Foundation to provide him with adequate funding to hire people with the right level of qualifications, so IMO the Foundation shares blame with him. And if they lacked that funding, they should should have stayed in one place as the "dockside attraction" stated in their certification.

That being said, I am concerned about how some are using their 20-20 hindsight to point blame. Case in point: All those who point fingers because the hurricane was so "very accurately forecast" (to quote Jan Miles' letter). That's a sure sign of hindsight, since you don't know the forecast was accurate until after the fact. I'm not saying that Walbridge should have ignored the forecast. It was clearly arrogant of him to think he knew better than the forecasters with his apparent belief (based on the track that he steered) that the hurricane would continue out to sea on a northwest path.

I am appalled at Jan Miles' self-serving letter. Aside from feeding our never-ending curiosity and letting off some of his own inner rage, what good comes from an open letter to a dead man?

What I want to know is where were all these experts as Bounty was preparing to head out to sea? A place like New London must have had dozens of knowledgeable captains and crew roaming the docks to prepare their craft for the approaching hurricane. They should have been telling Walbridge that he's out of his mind to go out. They should have been doing everything they could to convince Bounty's novice crew to mutiny. A ship that large can't just sneak out of the harbor unseen. They should have hopped into dinghys and followed Bounty though the harbor, yelling through megaphones what a big mistake they were making.

Tall ship captains are a small community that apparently "talks" (voice, text, and digital) among themselves a lot. If any one of them heard about Walbridge's plan ahead of time and didn't forcefully try to convince him otherwise, then they have blood on their hands too.

What also bugs me is the apparent disconnect between Walbridge's arrogance that we hear about now, vs. the reports that he had a "great reputation" before this accident. Which is it? If this tragedy was foretold by his prior history of chasing hurricanes and getting away with it (including a prior USCG rescue when his bilge pumps failed previously), why weren't his "friends" in the tall ship community expressing their concerns to him about his reckless past history? If everyone knew the new planks were nailed onto a rotted frame, why weren't his "friends" ratting out this dangerous vessel? If the tall ship community knew that this "shoreside attraction" was skirting the rules by disguising unqualified passengers as qualified crew, why weren't they protecting their colleagues by reporting them to the authorities?

It seems now like everyone in that community is piling on with their hindsight about how reckless the captain was. Too bad they didn't do a little more piling on before two people lost their lives.
All things aside as far as the Captain which most of us have determined bears the brunt of this looking at some of the tangential issues like these two. The first is a personal observation, and the second may have bearing on the actual cause of the excessive leaking in the vessel.

I must say I have to agree with you about Captain Jan Miles statement He reminded me of the man who always said greeted you at a party called you his friend, and then when you werent around talked about you in negative terms. If he knew of the deficiecies aboard the Bounty but he turned a blind eye to them, and then complains about them, my question is where were you?. If he knew the "dockside atraction" was unseaworthy" but failed to noitify even others in the TS community, what kind of organization does he belong too. Maybe it was jealousy on his part as the Bounty was clearly the main atttraction at the gatherings and had to play second fiddle to a Captain who when finally dead he could unload on. he surley wasnt his friend. I lost respect for this man and would never sail on any of his boats. He is the ultimate Monday morning quarterback, with an art of turning the spotlighht on himself to issue is letter to the dead Captain. It was a major grandstand stunt.

I am still sorting through the testimony and have great issue with the Boothbay Shipyard taking money from a person and nailing good planks on rotten substructure and pronouncing fit to sail away. The same rotten substructure they had repaired only a few years earlier, At a certain point you cant keep adding omn to a poor steucture, and someone should call a halt or even blow the whistle that its unsafe. Of course that would mean a loss of revenue for Boothbay and that may drive this also. I know their previous reputation from others her was that this place was a fine place. However further research into the Shipyard shows them loosing a civil law case of poor workmanship, repair and materials in the fixing another tall ship during the same time period the Shenendoah. I am still researching, No mention in tesimony of a catastrophic coccurance like someone saw the planking on the hull pull apart or a joint egde come apart will make fixing any responsibility on them next to impossible inless someone broings her up and finds her that way. Harly likely.
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  #1850  
Old 02-23-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

It's a sensitive topic, so I don't want to debate my views on the Captain with this reply. They are well documented above.

I do understand the TS community's reaction after the fact. Before, it was not their responsibility. Although, it sure may have saved lives if they had taken it on. Now, however, I'm sure they feel they will be held accountable for these reckless actions they would have never undertaken themselves. I think that is exactly what will happen. I understand their indignation.

Quote:
What also bugs me is the apparent disconnect between Walbridge's arrogance that we hear about now, vs. the reports that he had a "great reputation" before this accident. Which is it?
These don't seem mutually exclusive at all. The culture he presided over seemed to be very nurturing, but he also seemed to exaggerate his own abilities, which is the definition of arrogant.
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