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post #1851 of 1950 Old 02-23-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
I also hope they learned from this close call.
A "close call"?

A woman DIED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

CLOSE CALL?????????????????????????????????????????


DEATH IS A CLOSE CALL??????????????

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post #1852 of 1950 Old 02-23-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
...

... ..

What I want to know is where were all these experts as Bounty was preparing to head out to sea? A place like New London must have had dozens of knowledgeable captains and crew roaming the docks to prepare their craft for the approaching hurricane. They should have been telling Walbridge that he's out of his mind to go out. They should have been doing everything they could to convince Bounty's novice crew to mutiny. A ship that large can't just sneak out of the harbor unseen. They should have hopped into dinghys and followed Bounty though the harbor, yelling through megaphones what a big mistake they were making.

Tall ship captains are a small community that apparently "talks" (voice, text, and digital) among themselves a lot. If any one of them heard about Walbridge's plan ahead of time and didn't forcefully try to convince him otherwise, then they have blood on their hands too.
....
It seems now like everyone in that community is piling on with their hindsight about how reckless the captain was. Too bad they didn't do a little more piling on before two people lost their lives.
Captains are very independent and no subject to other authority than their boss or the CG and even so I am sure they intervene the lesser they can. Captains have a huge responsibility and to that responsibility corresponds a huge discretionary power of decision. It is supposed that they are able to exercise it with good judgement. The level of autonomy that their work demands makes that authority necessary.

I am quite sure that Captains respect that independence of judgment among them. Each know their ship, their crew and he is the only one responsible for taking decisions. Intervening with the decisions of other Captains is a thing I don't think they will do. They can think that another Captain is taking wrong decisions, they can even say so, as it was the case with the Captain of the Picton Castle, but they will respect the autonomy of other captain and will give him the benefit of the doubt...at least till the moment it is obvious that the decision was very wrong and had tragic consequences.

The only ones that seem to me had the authority to prevent Walbridge to sail was the CG but even for that they had to have a strong motive. They had not inspected the ship (it was not required due to the Ship classification) and therefore ignored if the ship was sound and with all systems operational and even if the crew was well qualified or not (they had no way of demanding or inspecting that).

Finally, nobody, except the crew know that wallbridge intended to sail the Hurricane and not looking for shelter on one of the nearby Ports.

I don't like also that open letter to a dead man, but that is another story.

Regards

Paulo
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post #1853 of 1950 Old 02-23-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post
A "close call"?

A woman DIED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

CLOSE CALL?????????????????????????????????????????


DEATH IS A CLOSE CALL??????????????
Chill out, dude. I was referring to the survivors. You know, the ones that didn't die. It was a close call for them. I think that's pretty obvious.

The two who died did not learn anything.


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post #1854 of 1950 Old 02-23-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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..Finally, nobody, except the crew know that wallbridge intended to sail the Hurricane and not looking for shelter on one of the nearby Ports...
How do you know that? I haven't heard that in the testimony. Please cite your source.


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post #1855 of 1950 Old 02-23-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
How do you know that? I haven't heard that in the testimony. Please cite your source.
Jesus, again

The Captain called the crew, said to them what he want to do, give them half an hour to decide and after that they sailed away. How many Tall ship Captains do you think had notice of that before he sailed away?

Regards

Paulo


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post #1856 of 1950 Old 02-24-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Jesus, again

The Captain called the crew, said to them what he want to do, give them half an hour to decide and after that they sailed away. How many Tall ship Captains do you think had notice of that before he sailed away?

Regards

Paulo
Paulo, it's been stated already here - without any disagreement - that "Bounty" was classed as a private yacht:

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No it was not inspected and registered as a private yacht.
They even subverted the tonnage rules to get (less) 250GT certification to avoid some of the rules.
....
They subverted the system to register as a private yacht.
Can you please stop comparing the decisions of the late captain of the "Bounty" with the captains of "real" (ie. qualified & certified) Tall Ships??.. It simply is not fair to do so.

Thanks.
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Last edited by Classic30; 02-24-2013 at 05:53 PM.
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post #1857 of 1950 Old 02-24-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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Originally Posted by Hartley18 View Post
...Can you please stop comparing the decisions of the late captain of the "Bounty" with the captains of "real" (ie. qualified & certified) Tall Ships??.. It simply is not fair to do so....
You make a very good point on the technical distinction. However, I think the outcome is going to either ignore it or keep it from continuing.
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post #1858 of 1950 Old 02-24-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
The Captain called the crew, said to them what he want to do, give them half an hour to decide and after that they sailed away. How many Tall ship Captains do you think had notice of that before he sailed away?
Some of the versions say it was more than a half hour. But it's irrelevant anyway. The reports are saying the the crew were texting and emailing friends and family, so even if it was thirty minutes there was enough time for the message to get out.

And even if no captains heard about it before he left, there may have still been over a day to contact the ship using the various technology options available (VHF, cell phone if close to shore, etc.) to try to talk some sense into the guy. It wasn't a secret that they were out there - the blogs were all atwitter about the fact that he had gone out.

All I'm suggesting is that it's really disingenuous of all the "experts" to have waited until after he died to express their rage at him. Sending an open letter to a dead man is a lot less effective than contacting him while he's still alive. Maybe somebody will think of that next time someone makes an obviously idiotic decision.

Maybe some of this "independence" that you referred to is actually part of a culture problem in the broader community of captains. I don't deny that it's there - but that doesn't mean it should not change. Kicking your old friend when he's down at the bottom of the ocean is not the way to help him.


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post #1859 of 1950 Old 02-24-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Interesting stuff at GCaptain by Mario Vittone

"At the start of each day of the hearings, Commander Kevin Carroll does the same thing: he reads a statement. He tells all in attendance, “The purpose of the investigation is to determine the cause of the casualty and the responsibility therefore to the fullest extent possible; and to obtain information for the purpose of preventing or reducing the effects of similar casualties in the future.” A worthy purpose, to be sure. ... But then he says something that some may have missed:

“This investigation is also intended to determine whether there is any evidence of any incompetence, misconduct, or willful violation of the law on the part of any licensed officer, pilot, seaman, employee, owner, or agent of the owner of any vessel involved…”

The hearings are also intended to look for evidence of negligence or incompetence.

“Evidence of any incompetence” of a licensed captain would not come by asking questions of the crew that worked beneath him. They had never been in his position, they didn’t know what he knew or what he should have known. They simply believed and admired the man and trusted his decisions. To determine whether or not the trip itself was evidence of incompetence or negligence, Carroll had to find similarly credentialed and experienced captains to testify. He needed to ask them to put themselves in Walbridge’s place, and say what they would have done. He needed to speak with the best....

On the phone was Captain Daniel Moreland, arguably the most respected captain in the traditional sailing ship community. Moreland was calling in to testify from Tahiti. His ship, the Picton Castle, is on a six month voyage in the South Pacific. Moreland has taken the barque around the world five times since he’s been captain. His personal sailing experience started in the 1970′s. He is without question one of the most competent sailing ship masters in the world. When Carroll asked what his thoughts were when he found out Bounty was at sea from New London, Moreland’s response was no surprise:

Moreland: “I couldn’t believe it. I still don’t.”

At the time Sandy was tracking up the Atlantic, the Picton Castle was scheduled to leave home port for the world cruise she was now on. Moreland had cancelled because of the storm days before Bounty had left New London. He went on to discuss the much safer options available to Walbridge if he thought New London was unsafe due to storm surge. “New Bedford – up above the bridge,” Moreland offered. New Bedford, 100 miles to the north of New London, has a “hurricane barrier” specifically designed as a hiding place for ships that need to avoid storm surge.

When asked by Carroll if he believed that a ship is “safer at sea,” Moreland discussed the difference between a Navy vessel that had the ability to move at 22 knots and be 400 miles from the storm, and a slow-moving historic sailing vessel. “…and the Navy is paid to take that risk so that they can respond if needed for war…but between the ship and crew, you always have to go with what is safer for the crew.”

Moreland made it clear to investigators that he would not have made the same choice as Walbridge if put in that situation. In fact, he was in the same situation and hadn’t. The primary difference between Walbridge’s choice to leave and Moreland’s to stay, was that Picton Castle was larger, made of steel, rigorously inspected, and prepared for a global voyage. If Moreland wasn’t thinking about leaving port in late October – what was Walbridge thinking? Only the HMS Bounty Organization’s attorney had the nerve to ask:

Moreland: “I can’t imagine what he was thinking.”

There were no further questions from the Bounty Organization.

Ralph Mellusi, the attorney for the estate of Claudene Christian, wanted more specific testimony:

Mellusi: “What if the bilge system of your ship wasn’t in perfect working order and in fact your crew had told you they were concerned that it wasn’t working properly; would you have taken the ship to sea in those conditions?”

Moreland: “That would be unconscionable on a good day.”

Investigators interviewed two more captains of tall ships, including the captain of the Pride of Baltimore II , Jan Miles. Captain Miles, also a well-respected captain and a friend of Robin Walbridge, was so dismayed by his decision to sail into Sandy’s path that he wrote an open letter to Walbridge calling his decision to sail “reckless in the extreme.” He too told Carroll he wouldn’t have sailed, and that a ship wasn’t safer at sea, adding “I don’t know what would have caused her [Bounty] to go.” His responses to Mellusi’s questions were chilling. Mellusi simply read the most damning passages from Miles’ letter and asked the wooden tall ship captain, “Do you still stand by that statement.” Without hesitation, Captain Miles answered with only one firm word, “Yes.”

The masters had given no quarter to the deceased Walbridge. Leaving New London on October 25th and sailing toward hurricane Sandy was – in itself – negligent. No competent sailing captain would have done it.

But Robin Walbridge had competently sailed Bounty for seventeen years. Why, indeed, would he do something that no other captain would have done? The investigation continues; Commander Carroll has a massive job still ahead of him.

But perhaps Robin Walbridge was suffering from the same thing his crew was – a lack of the right kind of experience. He had faced down storms before and won, he had tangled with hurricanes and made it home, his experience was that if he headed into harm’s way, he would get away with it.

He had clearly confused the lack of failure with success, and may have begun to truly believe his own advice. Maybe it was something else, I don’t know. Robin Walbridge, the last captain of Bounty, isn’t here to ask".



Well, nothing that it was not said in this thread long ago, but interesting stuff even so.

....


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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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Well, nothing that it was not said in this thread long ago, but interesting stuff even so.
....
Yes, indeed it is.

I feel sorry for those captains being dragged into this.

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Last edited by Classic30; 02-24-2013 at 06:46 PM.
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