HMS Bounty in trouble... - Page 188 - SailNet Community

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  #1871  
Old 02-25-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
Maybe it's a language translation issue, but you don't seem to understand the meaning of the word "culture" as we yankees have used it. It is totally separate from regulation. A safety culture is a set of attitudes and practices that go beyond the mandatory regulations. Indeed, various groups (like the Tall Ship community) will often argue that increased regulation is not needed because their "culture" provides adequate self-policing. Just wait until there are some increased regulations proposed - I guarantee that you'll hear theses argument starting to be made.


I think the blame is shared with the Tall Ship Community. If what you've said is true and it was known that the ship was in bad shape, they had lots of ways to apply strong peer pressure. It seems like most Associations that sponsor races and other competitions have minimum safety rules that must be followed, including design criteria that ensure seaworthiness. What a ( "]Tall Ships Challenge[/URL]? If everybody knew what bad shape this boat was in, and that they were skirting the rules, why was Bounty admitted by the event organizers?

Hell, they even promoted the boat as accepting "students and groups of all ages."

Now try to tell me that the Tall Ship community isn't complicit in this disaster. This it not all the Coast Guard's fault.
Wow, So the TS sponsored and included the Bounty as a participant inalong with the Captains of the vessels Pitcarin Castle and Pride of Baltimore in 2009,2010,2011,and 2012. The knew the Bounty had substandard maintainence and safety and they still allowed them to participate. Hell they even promoted them in their literature.

They in fact promoted in their own literture that they had some kind of safty inspection
Quote:
Safety at sea is critical and each participating sailing vessel has been inspected and certified for its intended use either by a national maritime authority (the Coast Guard in the US) or by an internationally-endorsed society. At the beginning of the season, the safety equipment on each vessel is double-checked by the TALL SHIPS CHALLENGE® Race Committee and any discrepancies are remedied prior to the first race.
http://www.sailtraining.org/tallships/index.php

How now can the Captains of these vessels claim they knew all along that the BOUnty was suspect when in fact the were part of the organization which helped validated them certified to participate in the TS Challenege.

Had someone from the TS organization raised an alarm back in 2009,2010, 2011 or 2012 about the vessels seaworthiness dont you think the CG would have had a look at it even though private vessels are not required to be liscenced. Why the TS were not silent but actually complicit in fooing the people the Bounty was seaworthy.

Jan Miles Letter on Facebook damning the on month dead Captain
https://www.facebook.com/notes/jan-c...74315806048123



Another ancillary part of the saga to add to the Boothbay Shipyard in the conclusions
Dave
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Last edited by chef2sail; 02-25-2013 at 03:33 AM.
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  #1872  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

While some input from the TS community was in poor taste, I do not assign responsibility to them. I'm not even sure they falsely advertised Bounty, as it was inspected, just not to commercial standards for carrying paying passengers.

Wasn't the Coast Guard actually aboard Bounty many times for inspections? There is a link above to dozens of them. They may have been limited in nature, but obviously the hulk passed the rules as they were (and are unlikely to remain). Who was the TSC going to tip off? I'm also not buying that peer pressure would have made a bit of difference either. This was an independently owned vessel, registered as a private yacht. It had to be pretty clear to the professional community that this operation was always trying to skirt the rules and there seemed to be no official violation after years of USCG involvement. It may have been a perfectly safe dockside attraction or fair weather Bay cruiser, how could they know that level of detail. This was simply a dereliction of duty to take this hulk on a passage beyond its capability and the TS community, along with everyone else, was unaware of that decision until it was too late.

I'm not defending the poor taste of the open letter, but none of this disaster should be at the TSC doorstep either. What I find most interesting is that I'm not aware that all the actions of the TS community are even in evidence, or ever will be, and those most insistent on official investigation evidence have been willing to overlook that requirement in this case. Do we know that no member of the TSC ever confronted the skipper or the owner?
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  #1873  
Old 02-25-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
While some input from the TS community was in poor taste, I do not assign responsibility to them. I'm not even sure they falsely advertised Bounty, as it was inspected, just not to commercial standards for carrying paying passengers.

Wasn't the Coast Guard actually aboard Bounty many times for inspections? There is a link above to dozens of them. They may have been limited in nature, but obviously the hulk passed the rules as they were (and are unlikely to remain). Who was the TSC going to tip off? I'm also not buying that peer pressure would have made a bit of difference either. This was an independently owned vessel, registered as a private yacht. It had to be pretty clear to the professional community that this operation was always trying to skirt the rules and there seemed to be no official violation after years of USCG involvement. It may have been a perfectly safe dockside attraction or fair weather Bay cruiser, how could they know that level of detail. This was simply a dereliction of duty to take this hulk on a passage beyond its capability and the TS community, along with everyone else, was unaware of that decision until it was too late.

I'm not defending the poor taste of the open letter, but none of this disaster should be at the TSC doorstep either. What I find most interesting is that I'm not aware that all the actions of the TS community are even in evidence, or ever will be, and those most insistent on official investigation evidence have been willing to overlook that requirement in this case. Do we know that no member of the TSC ever confronted the skipper or the owner?
Not assigning blame to the TR community for the captain leaving at all.

Just pointing out that they sanctimoniously condemened the ship while they looked the other way at other times. They are the ones themselves who kdsy they new the crew were virtual amateurs. the ship was not maintained well and would not let friends sail; on that ship. And they didnt even tell their "friend" he might me making a mistake when under way.

I am quite sure if they had confronted the skipper or owner they would be trumpeting that all over given their nature for the overly dramatic.

Maybe they do need more regulations.
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  #1874  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
.....And they didnt even tell their "friend" he might me making a mistake when under way.

I am quite sure if they had confronted the skipper or owner they would be trumpeting that all over given their nature for the overly dramatic.....
That is a conclusion drawn without evidence or complete investigation. Not to mention, you are condemning an entire industry over comments from a few and the advertising of a single event. A true professional, which you would prefer they emulate, would not be trumpeting their previous input to the Bounty organization. Its entirely possible it did happen.
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  #1875  
Old 02-25-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Not assigning blame to the TR community for the captain leaving at all.

Just pointing out that they sanctimoniously condemened the ship while they looked the other way at other times. They are the ones themselves who kdsy they new the crew were virtual amateurs. the ship was not maintained well and would not let friends sail; on that ship. And they didnt even tell their "friend" he might me making a mistake when under way.

I am quite sure if they had confronted the skipper or owner they would be trumpeting that all over given their nature for the overly dramatic.

Maybe they do need more regulations.
Yes, I am sure they need more regulations and regarding auto regulation I guess they will also going to improve on that. Nobody like to be regulated and the racing Classes and Offshore racing bodies (ORC) that regulated the safety needs for offshore races only had done that after massive accidents (Fastnet disaster and others) and public pressure. That was a question of survival for them. They would not be allowed to go on if the things remain as they were so they choose to auto-regulate themselves in what regards safety.

I guess that is going to happen now the same regarding TSC. Inside strong safety mandatory and inspected regulations are only possible to be accepted by the associates if they have not any other choice, or at least a better choice. Everybody loves freedom and that has a cost that may be too high for some.
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Last edited by PCP; 02-25-2013 at 09:03 AM.
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  #1876  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Unfortunately, whenever a bad event happens, or even things not necessarily bad happen but different from what was expected, the response is always new laws and regulations. There were some fatal automobile accidents over the week end, therefore, with the same reasoning, we need new laws, maybe a 1 year detailed course in driving before people are allowed on the road. A couple of wackos (out of 300,000,000+) kill a bunch of people, and we rush to band/regulate extensively the type of gun they used, never mind that more people were killed annually by hammers than this type of weapon. Last week, a doctor and his staff were killed when their private business jet crashed, so let's make rules that forbid medical personnel from flying....it's too risky and we can't afford to lose their skills, especially with Obamacare coming. Soon, we'll have enough laws that everyone becomes a criminal, even if they have no intent. Nobody knows, or can comply with, all the regulations that already exist.

As for other TS captains interferring with the Bounty's captain, would Chef and others like their neighbors and contemporaries interferring in how they live their lives? How about a neighbor reporting you to the IRS, or Child Services, or to police when they think you may have been drinking excessively simply because you had a party, to which they were not present, that went on for hours? Not because the neighbor knew of some infraction, he just thought there might be, or things were being done different from how he would do them. I've read where people had these exact things happen already. Now, we are going to report boats that we think are unsafe, or report captains that we think are making the wrong call?

In the grand scheme of things, not many people get killed on tall ships. New laws and regulations each time two people die in an accident that really was a result of a single person in charge making a bad decision?
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Last edited by NCC320; 02-25-2013 at 09:54 AM.
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  #1877  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

^ Fantastic post. I agree completely.

What happened on the Bounty didn't happen because they weren't regulated. It happened because nobody in the Bounty organization was willing to use basic logic because they didn't like the logical conclusion they would have come to: The ship was not seaworthy.

The ship could not afford repairs- Bounty's decision: Don't do them!

The ship was not in good material condition to sail- Bounty's decision: Go anyway!

There is a super storm heading our way- Bounty's decision: Let's go for it!

The chief engineer is totally unqualified- Bounty's decision: He works cheap. You're hired!

The ship inevitably gets in trouble in a hurricane- Bounty's decision: Don't call anyone! We can make it!


You simply cannot regulate madness out of existance. Regulations (laws) do not prevent mishaps. They allow for punishment after the fact.

Will more regulation come? That's up to someone besides me. We will see in time. But what regulation would have prevented the sheer stupidity that led to the Bounty tragedy? They ignored basic logic in every instance and the outcome was inevitable. The Bounty was going to sink, sooner or later.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShoalFinder View Post
..
What happened on the Bounty didn't happen because they weren't regulated. It happened because nobody in the Bounty organization was willing to use basic logic because they didn't like the logical conclusion they would have come to: The ship was not seaworthy. ...

...
I don't get your logic. If the lack of proper laws did not allow a ship to be considered as a yacht and that way escape proper mandatory inspections, that boat would be limited to be a dock attraction and that accident would never happen.

Regulations exist for not letting to the discrimination of individuals what is safe or not. Obviously the Bounty organization considered the boat seaworthy to sail near an hurricane, otherwise they would not set sail.

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  #1879  
Old 02-25-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShoalFinder View Post
^ Fantastic post. I agree completely.

What happened on the Bounty didn't happen because they weren't regulated. It happened because nobody in the Bounty organization was willing to use basic logic because they didn't like the logical conclusion they would have come to: The ship was not seaworthy.

The ship could not afford repairs- Bounty's decision: Don't do them!

The ship was not in good material condition to sail- Bounty's decision: Go anyway!

There is a super storm heading our way- Bounty's decision: Let's go for it!

The chief engineer is totally unqualified- Bounty's decision: He works cheap. You're hired!

The ship inevitably gets in trouble in a hurricane- Bounty's decision: Don't call anyone! We can make it!


You simply cannot regulate madness out of existance. Regulations (laws) do not prevent mishaps. They allow for punishment after the fact.

Will more regulation come? That's up to someone besides me. We will see in time. But what regulation would have prevented the sheer stupidity that led to the Bounty tragedy? They ignored basic logic in every instance and the outcome was inevitable. The Bounty was going to sink, sooner or later.
All good points. But Bounty's deficiencies (and "dockside attraction" status) were apparently well known among the Tall Ship community. Neverteless, the Tall Ship Challenge allowed Bounty to participate AND EVEN HELPED THEM PROMOTE RIDES FOR "students and groups of all ages," in apparent violation of the limitations of their "dockside attraction" certification.

I accept your argument that regulation may not prevent these sorts of accidents. But organizations like Tall Ships America (who run the dozens of events that make up the Tall Ship Challenge Series) are in a position to influence the safety culture in a way that proactively prevents these accidents. And they clearly failed in this case.
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  #1880  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
All good points. But Bounty's deficiencies (and "dockside attraction" status) were apparently well known among the Tall Ship community. Neverteless, the Tall Ship Challenge allowed Bounty to participate AND EVEN HELPED THEM PROMOTE RIDES FOR "students and groups of all ages," in apparent violation of the limitations of their "dockside attraction" certification.

I accept your argument that regulation may not prevent these sorts of accidents. But organizations like Tall Ships America (who run the dozens of events that make up the Tall Ship Challenge Series) are in a position to influence the safety culture in a way that proactively prevents these accidents. And they clearly failed in this case.

All great points. Points which indicate that the TS community is not doing a good job of policing themselves. Will that lead to more regulation? It may. Does the TS community need someone to step in and tell them what to do? Not if they are the subject matter experts they are supposed to be. That is a damning indictment of the TS community as a bunch of pretenders.

Therefore, for anyone who would put their children on a tall ship, CAVEAT EMPTOR.

Last edited by ShoalFinder; 02-25-2013 at 10:36 AM.
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