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  #1881  
Old 02-25-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I don't get your logic. If the lack of proper laws did not allow a ship to be considered as a yacht and that way escape proper mandatory inspections, that boat would be limited to be a dock attraction and that accident would never happen.

Regulations exist for not letting to the discrimination of individuals what is safe or not. Obviously the Bounty organization considered the boat seaworthy to sail near an hurricane, otherwise they would not set sail.

Regards

Paulo

The logic is simple. Captains are licensed in an effort to prevent unqualified people from making disastrous, stupid decisions.

Who tested the pumps? Who was in charge of the criminally negligent state of the engine room? Who was in charge of training on the ship's systems? The Engineer is in charge of these things and the captain is ULTIMATELY in charge of these things. Both men failed miserably.

In one regard, I will completely agree that regulations need to be addressed: the whole idea behind the Bounty being classified as a private yacht instead of a commercial enterprise. Would that change anything, though? We all hope that it would, but the reality is that the material condition of many commercial vessels is equally atrocious.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Actually NCC320, I agree with you for the most part about over regulations. Throughout my professional life I've been involved with regulation and safety in the nuclear industry and for the most part it was very much needed. And even in the auto industry there were many improvement in safety at the bequest of Nader in the 60's. Even here recently the battery problems with the Boeing airliner was a good thing to ground that plane until a fix is found. Actually identifying the problem and fixing it is harder than it appears due to many factors. Some of which are political in nature, financial, egos and bureacrats. The louder voice gets heard over the more reasoned technical one. A couple of years ago we had our dock on the Cheaspeake replaced and after undergoing much red tape and having to make a modification to the stairway from the dock down to the small beach area, we were finally in compliance. However a couple of months later a storm wiped out that entire staircase and my neighbor and I had to retreive it and this time we repaired it ourselves by through bolting it to the pilings which should have been done from day one. My point being that the regulations did not cover the more important aspect of keeping that staircase intact, but rather looked at the cosmetics.

It is difficult getting a truely objective look at accidents and their causes, but it can be done. I was taken aback when the yard manager testified that the Captain told him that the Bounty was leaking water at the rate of 30000 gallons/hr. He couldn't believe it, but when he brought the Bounty out of the water back in 2006, he believed him. I still think that must be a wrong quote and maybe I heard it wrong.(Decimal in the wrong place?) However, no additional testimony that I'm aware of was received of how the repairs made back then actually lessened the water intake and by how much!!!

Yes we are over regulated and that makes us feel good, but safety should be the goal over a feel good approach.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

I've been reading some of the early testimony about the condition of the vessel and the repairs made..found it interesting that the caulking material that was used was a Home Depot product DAP (non marine)being applied by non-skilled (students) persons in seams instead of the traditional way...
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShoalFinder View Post
The logic is simple. Captains are licensed in an effort to prevent unqualified people from making disastrous, stupid decisions.

Who tested the pumps? Who was in charge of the criminally negligent state of the engine room? Who was in charge of training on the ship's systems? The Engineer is in charge of these things and the captain is ULTIMATELY in charge of these things. Both men failed miserably.

...
Safety regulations work like a kind of a double safety system when it is also demanded that someone qualified is in charge of something, in this case a ship. It prevents that one, even if legally qualified, can have particular ideas that go against the norm in what regards safety. In this case that a qualified Captain could find that the Bounty was a seaworthy ship to sail in very bad weather.

This double safe system is common in many professions whose work can put other lives in danger. For instance on a building project and Engineer is needed to calculate the structure and is accountable regarding his work (like a Captain) but he has to follow several rules and norms that specify the margins of security he has to follow, specially in what regards seismic efforts. It is like that here and I believe everywhere.

If you trust that only a qualified man in charge is enough in what regards security, not having any mandatory and normalized rules about security, you risk that he has some very particular notion about security, that can be deadly to others. That was the case with the Bounty and that is why ruling is necessary to establish a minimum required safety level no matter the professional qualification of who is in charge.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 02-25-2013 at 12:03 PM.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
The only ones that seem to me had the authority to prevent Walbridge to sail was the CG but even for that they had to have a strong motive. They had not inspected the ship (it was not required due to the Ship classification) and therefore ignored if the ship was sound and with all systems operational and even if the crew was well qualified or not (they had no way of demanding or inspecting that).

Regards

Paulo
My understanding is the CG could deem a ship (and or crew) "Manifestly Unsafe". (Seeing Bounty was the only ship in the Atlantic sailing into the path of a Hurricane, I would think CG would easily consider this voyage manifestly unsafe no matter what they knew or did not know about the ship.) Once this is done, the captain or comanding officer of the ship would be required to comply with any order given by the CG, including not leaving port, return to port, or abandon ship. This control measure was implemented during the "Perfect Storm" of 1991 towards the SV:

The Perfect Storm, 20 years later « Coast Guard Compass

Good video:
http://westsail.org/satori

The Perfect Storm, 20 years laterPosted by LT Stephanie Young, Saturday, October 29, 2011


Coast Guard Cutter Tamaroa's rescue boat is sent to help the sailing vessel Satori. Satori, with three people aboard, needed help after being caught in a storm that raked New England over Halloween weekend 1991. U.S. Coast Guard photo.

Written by Petty Officer 1st Class Judy L. Silverstein, 7th Coast Guard District Public Affairs

Two decades after the massive and now-infamous No Name Halloween Storm pounded the northeast; the former operations officer of Coast Guard Cutter Tamaroa continues to ponder the life-changing event.

“It still gives me pause,” said Kristopher Furtney, who retired in 2001 as a lieutenant commander following two decades of service.

Furtney, 53, meticulously described details of the late-October weather system immortalized by the film, The Perfect Storm. A ferocious nor’easter, it was also dubbed “the storm of the century” because three massive weather systems collided, resulting in treacherous conditions at sea.

Calm before the storm

Originally built for the United States Navy during World War II as a seagoing tug, the USS Zuni became the Tamaroa in 1946, when transferred to the Coast Guard. Although a reliable vessel, the single-screw cutter met its match Halloween weekend of 1991.

The dramatic events of Halloween weekend 1991 began to unfold after the crew returned from a 48-hour mid-patrol break in its homeport, Newcastle, N.H. When they pulled their 205-foot tug into Provincetown, Mass., the blowing wind alerted them of an impending storm. What they couldn’t know is that the sun would rise and set five more times before they headed back into port.

“I remember looking at the blustery conditions and the darkening sky, hearing the constant crackling of the radio and saying, ‘It isn’t a matter of if we get called, but when,’” Furtney said.

Those words would prove prophetic.

Search for Satori


The sailing vessel Satori is tossed by a wave about 75 miles south of Nantucket Island. U.S. Coast Guard photo.
Like countless Coast Guardsmen before them, the crew of Tamaroa, tied down anything that might come loose topside and below deck. While at anchor, the winds and seas were gradually building offshore. At 10:00 p.m. taps was piped. Yet just 10 minutes later, the crew heard reveille, when they should have been drifting off to sleep. Heading out into the stormy night, they began searching for Satori, a sailing vessel in distress 75 miles off Nantucket Island.

With Block Island to their east and Montauk Point to the west, seas began to build on the ship’s stern as they made best speed to Satori, still 80 nautical miles away. With a helicopter and a Falcon jet on scene, the Tamaroa arrived at approximately noon. The crew of Satori had survived a disastrous night where they had lost all their sails and pitch-pulled.

“The captain of the Tamaroa determined it was a manifestly unsafe voyage, and the 1st District commander agreed,” said Furtney.

Rescuing the crew proved challenging in high winds and rough seas. A boat launched from Tamaroa sustained damage to one of its lifting eyes. Still able to control the boat, the crew was able to pass foul weather gear to the sailors, in preparation for their hoist to safety by a helicopter. Yet the small boat sustained further damage to two pontoons. Reluctantly, three seasoned crewmembers were hoisted to safety, as it would have been nearly impossible to receiver the small boat.

“From a search and rescue point of view, we had reduced our crew and lost one of our rigid hull inflatable boats,” said Furtney. “I was thinking, ‘I’m glad they’re safe, let’s get out of this weather,’” he said.

But their work was far from over.

Rescue in 60-knot winds

Another search and rescue case developed in the vicinity of Bermuda and an Air National Guard crew was dispatched. Heading north and making less than three miles an hour into the heavy winds and sea, the crew of Tamaroa ate a simple supper of scrambled eggs, sweetened juice, toast and medication to combat the seasickness that had set in.

At 10:00 p.m., taps was once again piped throughout the ship. Yet five minutes later, Furtney heard a command to change frequencies for an Air National Guard helicopter in distress. His adrenaline racing, he heard the co-pilot say, “We’ve lost number one, 40 pounds of fuel remaining, preparing to ditch.”

Furtney raced to brief the captain, and reveille was piped to awaken the crew once again. They learned the helicopter ditched approximately 30 nautical miles south of the Tamaroa.

“As the ship came about, all hands experienced the fury of 60-knot winds and 30-foot seas,” said Furtney.


Coast Guard rescue swimmer Petty Officer David Moore prepares three Coast Guardsmen from Tamaroa to be hoisted into a helicopter following the Satori rescue. U.S. Coast Guard photo.
After nearly three hours, Tamaroa arrived on scene in the dead of night. With the assistance of aircraft from Coast Guard Air Station Cape Cod, they located two sets of strobes about two miles apart.

“If not for those strobe lights, the aircraft and the Tamaroa would have never seen those survivors in the water,” said Furtney.

Trying multiple approaches over the next two and a half hours, they settled on using large cargo nets to pick up the survivors. During the rescue, the ship was put beam to the sea and the crew experienced 52-degree rolls for more than an hour.

“Visibility was severely impaired and water was blowing off the top of the high seas,” recalled Furtney.

At the height of the rescue, seas were greater than 40 feet and winds exceeded 80 knots. Pressing on, they were fueled by adrenaline and an intense desire to help. Although Tamaroa’s crew successfully rescued four Air National Guardsmen, there was one man still missing.

Furtney discussed the exhaustive search to locate the highly-decorated pararescueman, Rick Smith and recalled the emotional rollercoaster that came from numerous unconfirmed sightings in the water over the next 48 hours.

At the height of the rescue, the crew of Tamaroa had been working with little or no sleep. Many were ordered to get some rest.

“Adrenaline can only take you so far,” said Furtney.

Remembering two decades later

Two decades later, Furtney reflected on teamwork, leadership, the importance of evaluating risk and being prepared.

“One should expect the unexpected and constantly reevaluate the long-term impact of decisions upon your crew,” he said. “It’s also critical to remember each person plays a vital role, and that you must rely upon one another.”


Retired Lt. Cmdr. Kristopher Furtney was the operations officer of Coast Guard Cutter Tamaroa during the life-changing rescue of an Air National Guard crew and sailing vessel Satori. Photo courtesy of Kristopher Furtney.
The “Perfect Storm” provided an opportunity for the Coast Guard to perform well under horrific conditions. Furtney credits the work during the storm to collective critical thinking skills, the Coast Guard’s rich tradition of rescues under challenging conditions and solid teamwork.

“Making tough decisions and calculated risks on land can be challenging at times,” he said. “Factoring in fatigue and diminished control in rough weather at sea is a different game altogether.”

Giving his crew high marks for endurance and resilience, Furtney said the rescue was memorable but bittersweet.

“We were glad to have rescued four, but wished we could have rescued all five crewmembers during the Perfect Storm, and I still have strong emotions about that,” he said. “But having this opportunity to serve the public and help save a human life is why I joined the Coast Guard in the first place.”
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCC320 View Post
Unfortunately, whenever a bad event happens, or even things not necessarily bad happen but different from what was expected, the response is always new laws and regulations. There were some fatal automobile accidents over the week end, therefore, with the same reasoning, we need new laws, maybe a 1 year detailed course in driving before people are allowed on the road. A couple of wackos (out of 300,000,000+) kill a bunch of people, and we rush to band/regulate extensively the type of gun they used, never mind that more people were killed annually by hammers than this type of weapon. Last week, a doctor and his staff were killed when their private business jet crashed, so let's make rules that forbid medical personnel from flying....it's too risky and we can't afford to lose their skills, especially with Obamacare coming. Soon, we'll have enough laws that everyone becomes a criminal, even if they have no intent. Nobody knows, or can comply with, all the regulations that already exist.

As for other TS captains interferring with the Bounty's captain, would Chef and others like their neighbors and contemporaries interferring in how they live their lives? How about a neighbor reporting you to the IRS, or Child Services, or to police when they think you may have been drinking excessively simply because you had a party, to which they were not present, that went on for hours? Not because the neighbor knew of some infraction, he just thought there might be, or things were being done different from how he would do them. I've read where people had these exact things happen already. Now, we are going to report boats that we think are unsafe, or report captains that we think are making the wrong call?

In the grand scheme of things, not many people get killed on tall ships. New laws and regulations each time two people die in an accident that really was a result of a single person in charge making a bad decision?
What the heck does this have to do with Obamacare...you need to interject your own personal political agenda into this.

Quote:
How about a neighbor reporting you to the IRS, or Child Services, or to police when they think you may have been drinking excessively simply because you had a party, to which they were not present, that went on for hours? Not because the neighbor knew of some infraction, he just thought there might be, or things were being done different from how he would do them
.

So if you saw someone drinking excessively at a party and you knew they got into a car and they were driving you would do nothing right? Please answer this.

I never said they had an obligation to say anything to the Captain, no had to.

It wasnt me, It was Jan Miles who wrote the Dear Robin letter in poor taste a month after he went to his death. If he needed a catharsis why didnt he write it and just send it to his wife. Why did he publish it on Facebook where all the world can see. What was that purpose? What did he stand to gain from that? If I screwed up caused someone to die would I expect any friend of mine to publically do what he did? Why did he do it that way?

What I am saying here is that their protestations lack sincerity when it came down to it as they stood idly by all along. And some of the statements showed 20/20 hinsight as Take Five said as they were not beforehand yet they had knowledge of the Bounty comnditions forehand. Maine sail aptly pointed out he could see this at the dock and that the boat should never have really ever left the dock let alone go into a hurricane.

By thier own admissions they knew the boat was suspect maintainence wise and their crew was incredibly ameteurish in experience. They were all part of the same TSC which supoosedly by their website inspected their ships carefully before promoting them in their voyages ( did you read what they said in their website). So had can they now say they now the Bounty was always in bad repair and had ameteurs when they said the opposite in their literature.

So i ask the same question again that I asked Paulo to you.

You have kept you boat in marina/ city for 8 years. You race every Wednesday night, go out and eat with the Salboat captains and get to know them fairly well. You go to marinia, club meetings regularly together and get to see each other quite a bit over the 8 years. Your crews intermingle and know each other too. You spend a lot of time together and one or two become even closer friends who you socialize with a lot. He owns the oldest boat in ther marina, has a rookie crew every year, fixes things with bailing wire and rope because he doesnt have the money to keep his boat up like you do. Everytimne you race he breaks down or breaks something, but he patches it up and makes every race. You have his e mail address and cell phone.

You know he is planning a trip from NC where you are to Maine. In your mind you are suspect he will not break down along the way even in the best of weather as that has been his MO, and you arent sure when hes leaving. A huge storm developes over 1000 miles away in middle of the Atlantic and looks but looks like it might travel to either the coastal US or the Gulf and could brush your marina, so you decide to make sure you boat is tied up well,

While doing this you find out he has left for Maine the night before. You are afraid for his life , his crew, and his ship surviving this storm

Will you do anything?
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  #1887  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

hms bounty hearings | gCaptain - Maritime & Offshore News

I assume this link has already been posted (or a link with similiar detail about the hearings in Portsmouth), but I just ran across it today and found it to be a very interesting, so thought I'd share if anyones looking for fresh updates on the hearings.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
My understanding is the CG could deem a ship (and or crew) "Manifestly Unsafe". (Seeing Bounty was the only ship in the Atlantic sailing into the path of a Hurricane, I would think CG would easily consider this voyage manifestly unsafe no matter what they knew or did not know about the ship.) Once this is done, the captain or comanding officer of the ship would be required to comply with any order given by the CG, including not leaving port, return to port, or abandon ship. This control measure was implemented during the "Perfect Storm" of 1991 towards the SV:
....
Yes I guess so but for that they had to know Wallbridge intentions. When he leave port did they know that he was not taking shelter in one of the ports along the way? Did they know that he was not going strait East putting space between the ship and the Hurricane? Did they know that he was riding the Hurricane? I doubt about this last hypothesis but if so, yes, the CG should have prevented the ship to sail out of Port.

On the case you mention (Westsail) a mayday was deployed by the crew (without the agreement of the Captain if I recall correctly), and only after that the boat and the voyage where considered unsafe.

On this case, even if they had systems out of order and were making water they didn't even send a Pane Pane to the CG. When they released a mayday the boat was already lost and when the CG arrived to the scene the boat had already capsized and they were on the water.

I don't know if the CG had enough information to justify preventing them out of Port, but clearly this and the Westsail situation are different case scenarios.

Regards

Paulo
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Yes I guess so but for that they had to know Wallbridge intentions. When he leave port did they know that he was not taking shelter in one of the ports along the way? Did they know that he was not going strait East putting space between the ship and the Hurricane? Did they know that he was riding the Hurricane? I doubt about this last hypothesis but if so, yes, the CG should have prevented the ship to sail out of Port.

On the case you mention (Westsail) a mayday was deployed by the crew (without the agreement of the Captain if I recall correctly), and only after that the boat and the voyage where considered unsafe.

On this case, even if they had systems out of order and were making water they didn't even send a Pane Pane to the CG. When they released a mayday the boat was already lost and when the CG arrived to the scene the boat had already capsized and they were on the water.

I don't know if the CG had enough information to justify preventing them out of Port, but clearly this and the Westsail situation are different case scenarios.

Regards

Paulo
If the Bounty had filed a float plan with the coast guard stating there plan was "to chase hurricane Sandy" I am fairly certain the CG would declare their voyage "manifestly unsafe" and ordered the boat not to sail into the hurricane. The reason the CG can do this is that they do not wish to be in a situation where they need to risk their lives and equipment to rescue someone that should not be where they are to begin with.

The CG does not need an issued Pan Pan or Mayday from a vessel. They can declare any voyage "manifestly unsafe" even before you leave the dock.

Of interest the SV Satori was found on Assateague Island (Maryland) a few days later (after CG rescue). Satori was fine with no storm damage, was towed off beach and continues to sail to this day.
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Last edited by casey1999; 02-25-2013 at 02:25 PM.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I don't get your logic. If the lack of proper laws did not allow a ship to be considered as a yacht and that way escape proper mandatory inspections, that boat would be limited to be a dock attraction and that accident would never happen.

Regulations exist for not letting to the discrimination of individuals what is safe or not. Obviously the Bounty organization considered the boat seaworthy to sail near an hurricane, otherwise they would not set sail.

Regards

Paulo
You see you can have all regulations you wan't but you can't get rid of stupidity just look at the Costa Concordia.. it was not a private yacht he still managed to sink it..

I think that's the point we are trying to make.

There is a licensing and training of a Captain specifically to avoid such a tradgedy from occuring.

As to TS community, I'm not happy how they behave, but again Captain probably talked Bounty up and was constantly saying it is in a "great shape", TS is not going to go there and unscrew the planks to inspect..
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