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  #1891  
Old 02-25-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
If the Bounty had filed a float plan with the coast guard stating there plan was "to chase hurricane Sandy" I am fairly certain the CG would declare their voyage "manifestly unsafe" and ordered the boat not to sail into the hurricane. The reason the CG can do this is that they do not wish to be in a situation where they need to risk their lives and equipment to rescue someone that should not be where they are to begin with.

The CG does not need an issued Pan Pan or Mayday from a vessel. They can declare any voyage "manifestly unsafe" even before you leave the dock.

....
Yes, of course, my point is that I believe CG did not know that they were going to sail an Hurricane and therefore had no valid reason to say that their voyage was manifestly unsafe.

Regards

Paulo
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  #1892  
Old 02-25-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt.Mhack View Post

There is a licensing and training of a Captain specifically to avoid such a tradgedy from occuring.
....
Sure and a training engineer to design structures and nuclear engineers to run nuclear plants but besides that they still have norms and safety requirements, safety procedures, safety margins that they are obliged to respect, even if they don't agree with them. Rules to insure minimum safety requirements no matter the competence (or incompetence) of the one in charge.

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Paulo
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  #1893  
Old 02-25-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

I think we may discover upon closer inspection that Bounty ran afoul of countless laws and regulations already. Which additional regulation would have prevented the Captain from sailing a rotten dockside attraction into a hurricane?

Perhaps we should wait for the results of the hearing to determine what else may be necessary? I believe there are many people involved for whom that is their goal at present. Of course, those people may at any time request the results from the SailNet Board Of Inquiry, but probably not.
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  #1894  
Old 02-25-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
What the heck does this have to do with Obamacare....


----Skip Obamacare if you like......only, just yesterday I read where Florida is proclaiming a shortage of doctors because of anticipated increased medical care demands....maybe it was wrong or right....just saying we couldn't afford to lose medical skils in business plane crashes, and if so, does that justify making rules preventing doctors from flying? i.e. we are drowning in regulations and rules now, do we really need more?-------

So if you saw someone drinking excessively at a party and you knew they got into a car and they were driving you would do nothing right? Please answer this.

----Go back a read what I said....the person reporting what he believes is a problem wasn't there....he doesn't know, he is just making an assumption, like the guy who thinks someone might be cheating on taxes, but doesn't know, and still reports it to the IRS. IRS follows up, giving the tax payer lots of stress only to find out that nothing is wrong. Is that ok? ----------


So i ask the same question again that I asked Paulo to you.

You have kept you boat in marina/ city for 8 years. You race every Wednesday night, go out and eat with the Salboat captains and get to know them fairly well. You go to marinia, club meetings regularly together and get to see each other quite a bit over the 8 years. Your crews intermingle and know each other too. You spend a lot of time together and one or two become even closer friends who you socialize with a lot. He owns the oldest boat in ther marina, has a rookie crew every year, fixes things with bailing wire and rope because he doesnt have the money to keep his boat up like you do. Everytimne you race he breaks down or breaks something, but he patches it up and makes every race. You have his e mail address and cell phone.

You know he is planning a trip from NC where you are to Maine. In your mind you are suspect he will not break down along the way even in the best of weather as that has been his MO, and you arent sure when hes leaving. A huge storm developes over 1000 miles away in middle of the Atlantic and looks but looks like it might travel to either the coastal US or the Gulf and could brush your marina, so you decide to make sure you boat is tied up well,

While doing this you find out he has left for Maine the night before. You are afraid for his life , his crew, and his ship surviving this storm

Will you do anything?

---So lets continue the story. I call and prevail on this guy to return after he has already departed. On the way back, he goes aground on Cape Lookout shoals, the boat is lost, and some of his crew drowns, but the captain survive. Coast Guard convenes a hearing, with lawyers for everyone there. Captain and surviving crew testifies that all was well until I called. They report that I insisted that the boat seek safety in port and they had come about to return to port. But at this time, they ran into poorer sailing conditions and subsequently lost control and were swept onto the shoals. So Coast Guard then asks if I am licensed captain, do I have experience in sailing such a vessel in this type of storm, asks why I interferred. And in the end, the hearing finds that I was instrumental in the loss in that I prevailed and pressured the captain, against his better judgement and who defered to someone he thought was more knowledgeable, to attemt the unsuccessful return. Guess who the lawyers are going to sue?---------
My point is that we don't solve every new problem with more and more rules and regulations. Sure, a certain level is needed. But after a time, we get so many that we can't do anything. A recent case was a fire out west. Because of regulations, the fire responders could not do anything because one set of rules instructed them to fight the fire, another set said they couldn't, and while they tried to get authories to resolve the issue, the fire destroyed the property.

And that we should take care in injecting ourselves into other's affairs, where we have no business and where we likely don't understand all of the things that are in motion.
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Last edited by NCC320; 02-25-2013 at 06:40 PM.
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  #1895  
Old 02-25-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCC320 View Post
My point is that we don't solve every new problem with more and more rules and regulations. Sure, a certain level is needed. But after a time, we get so many that we can't do anything. A recent case was a fire out west. Because of regulations, the fire responders could not do anything because one set of rules instructed them to fight the fire, another set said they couldn't, and while they tried to get authories to resolve the issue, the fire destroyed the property.
Quote:
---So lets continue the story. I call and prevail on this guy to change course after he has already departed. On the way back, he goes aground on Cape Lookout shoals, the boat is lost, and some of his crew drowns, but the captain survive. Coast Guard convenes a hearing, with lawyers for everyone there. Captain and surviving crew testifies that all was well until I called. They report that I insisted that the boat seek safety in port and they had come about to return to port. But at this time, they ran into poorer sailing conditions and subsequently lost control and were swept onto the shoals. So Coast Guard then asks if I am licensed captain, do I have experience in sailing such a vessel in this type of storm, asks why I interferred. And in the end, the hearing finds that I was instrumental in the loss in that I prevailed and pressured the captain, against his better judgement and who defered to someone he thought was more knowledgeable, to attemt the unsuccessful return. Guess who the lawyers are going to sue?
I got it so your answer is you are not going to care about your friend or call the police about the guy getting in the car drunk because you don't want to get sued or involved. You'd rather rail on about health care, the IRS and lawyers and regulations.

Me I will call the police so the drunk doesn't kill people even if gets get made at me.

Me I willcall my friend and ask him if he knows they are saying the storm has changed did he see that and that I am worried about he and his crew as all other boats and AIS signatures are heading or port. I would at least try and convince him as he is my friend. You will worry about being sued so you just watch him perish in silence. Or maybe one month letter write a public diatribe to him on Facebook.
Ig
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  #1896  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShoalFinder View Post
I think we may discover upon closer inspection that Bounty ran afoul of countless laws and regulations already. Which additional regulation would have prevented the Captain from sailing a rotten dockside attraction into a hurricane?

...
Of course, yes. If the boat had not a possibility to be considered as a yacht (according to the existent law) the Ship would not pass more serious inspections by the CG and and would be grounded or limited to be docked to the same quay as a dock attraction.

Evidently that if the boat had not a licence to sail, the Captain would not be able to sail a dockside attraction into a hurricane.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 02-25-2013 at 06:30 PM.
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  #1897  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

How many ships carry the designation of Tall Ship in the United States? We can leave the rest of the world out of it for now, as the USCG would have no jurisidiction. How many of those skippers/owners have weighed in at all on the Bounty?

I have a feeling that some are damning the entire TSC for the actions of about three, really one. Not fair. Further, it is in testimony that the crew had 30 minutes notice to depart. Who in the TCS was supposed to make the call to Bounty to talk them out of it? No one knew.

The updated rules are not as likely to change those that apply to the professional Tall Ships now. They are more likely to close the loophole that allowed Bounty to do the Private Yacht, fake paid crew nonsense.
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  #1898  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Sure and a training engineer to design structures and nuclear engineers to run nuclear plants but besides that they still have norms and safety requirements, safety procedures, safety margins that they are obliged to respect, even if they don't agree with them. Rules to insure minimum safety requirements no matter the competence (or incompetence) of the one in charge.

Regards

Paulo
Valid point, but the engineer doesn't have to stay inside of the nuclear power plant all the time.. I think if that was a requirement Chernobyl engineers might have designed few thing differently..

I'm afraid of creating new regulations to the point that it will be cost prohibitive to run any Tall Ships..
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  #1899  
Old 02-25-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
How many ships carry the designation of Tall Ship in the United States? We can leave the rest of the world out of it for now, as the USCG would have no jurisidiction. How many of those skippers/owners have weighed in at all on the Bounty?

I have a feeling that some are damning the entire TSC for the actions of about three, really one. Not fair. Further, it is in testimony that the crew had 30 minutes notice to depart. Who in the TCS was supposed to make the call to Bounty to talk them out of it? No one knew.

The updated rules are not as likely to change those that apply to the professional Tall Ships now. They are more likely to close the loophole that allowed Bounty to do the Private Yacht, fake paid crew nonsense.
Right the crew woke up out of a fourth year slumber like Rip van Winkle knew nothing about the hurricane forming and were suddenly forced to make a decision. Even the e mail from Christianson shows she was thinking about it.

The TSC seemed to know and feel the Bounty was less than. Less than in terms of maintainence, training and experience. Testimony by the thread where when posted a member If one of the other tall hips say they would NEVER recommend they sail as part of the crew of te Bounty. No one is to blame inevitably but the Captain. But when the two TS Captains start sitting in judgement and one writes a public open letter on Facebook one moth later slamming the dead captain, one has to wonder why thy didn't try and slow down the Bounty ever leaving the dock again. He is the one I have the biggest lack of respect for, Jan Miles. I do hope I get to see him in person this year in Baltimore. I don't at all feel sorry for any closer inspections of the TS from this point forward, or if they an find a way from preventing a dockside attraction from escaping and ducking the rules.
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  #1900  
Old 02-25-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
I got it so your answer is you are not going to care about your friend or call the police about the guy getting in the car drunk because you don't want to get sued or involved. You'd rather rail on about health care, the IRS and lawyers and regulations.

Me I will call the police so the drunk doesn't kill people even if gets get made at me.

Me I willcall my friend and ask him if he knows they are saying the storm has changed did he see that and that I am worried about he and his crew as all other boats and AIS signatures are heading or port. I would at least try and convince him as he is my friend. You will worry about being sued so you just watch him perish in silence. Or maybe one month letter write a public diatribe to him on Facebook.
Ig
There's a world of difference between (a) calling someone, as a friend, and suggesting to them, as a friend, that they change course and (b) calling someone, as a person of authority, and ordering them to change course - and I suspect you'll find (even in the US) your laws would take that into account also.

If you're calling them as a friend, they are presuamably free to listen to your advice and either accept it or ignore it. Either way, you have no control over the outcome nor could, I suspect, you be held liable for the outcome. OTOH, if you were a member of the Coastguard and you told them to turn around and they sank doing so you could reasonably expect to be interviewed at least..
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