HMS Bounty in trouble... - Page 191 - SailNet Community
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post #1901 of 1950 Old 02-25-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Sorry guys, I am still trying to figure out how it is acceptable for Tall Ships America to be OPENLY RECRUITING "students and groups of all ages" for the following:

Program Type...
For Paying Trainees: Overnight Passages,
For Paying Trainees: Day Sails,
Passenger Trade: Overnight Passages,
Passenger Trade: Day Sails

It sure seems to me like they may have been openly assisting the Bounty Foundation in operating in violation of their dockside attraction limitations:

Quote:
The ship carries 18 full-time paid crewmembers working side by side with our sail trainees and passengers. When docked in port, the Bounty is open for dockside tours, private functions and educational programs. She offers day sails for individuals and groups, sail passages, and corporate sail training and is available for private functions, film production, commercials and documentaries. Strongly dedicated to the educational development of today’s youth, Bounty works closely with universities and other non-profit organizations to provide leadership learning and youth education-at-sea programs.


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post #1902 of 1950 Old 02-26-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Right the crew woke up out of a fourth year slumber like Rip van Winkle knew nothing about the hurricane forming and were suddenly forced to make a decision. Even the e mail from Christianson shows she was thinking about it.
Oh boy. Not only sarcastic, but you missed the point. I didn't say no one knew they hurricane was coming. I said no one in the TSC knew they were planning to sail toward it in time to talk them out of it.

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The TSC seemed to know and feel the Bounty was less than. Less than in terms of maintainence, training and experience. Testimony by the thread where when posted a member If one of the other tall hips say they would NEVER recommend they sail as part of the crew of te Bounty. No one is to blame inevitably but the Captain. But when the two TS Captains start sitting in judgement and one writes a public open letter on Facebook one moth later slamming the dead captain, one has to wonder why thy didn't try and slow down the Bounty ever leaving the dock again. He is the one I have the biggest lack of respect for, Jan Miles. I do hope I get to see him in person this year in Baltimore. I don't at all feel sorry for any closer inspections of the TS from this point forward, or if they an find a way from preventing a dockside attraction from escaping and ducking the rules.
Again, you are damning the entire TSC because you have a bone to pick with one skipper, maybe two, out of how many?

I also didn't say that no one was to blame, but the Captain. You seem, on the other hand, to be proactively looking for another to add to the pile. I haven't seen evidence of anyone's fault, but the Captain's at this point. I am interested to hear more about the owner. It may or may not have made a difference, if the TSC pressure Bounty. In fact, other than two anecdotes, it is very possible other in the TSC did just that. I thought we weren't drawing conclusions until investigated?

The TSC is going to end up with tighter regulation. So be it. Fine by me if they never leave the dock again, although, I'm not proposing it.


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post #1903 of 1950 Old 02-26-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
Sorry guys, I am still trying to figure out how it is acceptable for Tall Ships America to be OPENLY RECRUITING "students and groups of all ages" for the following:

Program Type...
For Paying Trainees: Overnight Passages,
For Paying Trainees: Day Sails,
Passenger Trade: Overnight Passages,
Passenger Trade: Day Sails

It sure seems to me like they may have been openly assisting the Bounty Foundation in operating in violation of their dockside attraction limitations:
Seems pretty slippery to me and these rules should be changed. What I'm trying to understand is whether they were clearly in violation of the rules at the time. Loophole? Gray area? If so, these need to change.

The USCG had been aboard dozens of time for documented, albeit limited, inspections. They had to be fully aware of what was going on. I'm not trying to throw them under the bus, but it seems more like a loophole was being used or the USCG would have had a problem before the TSC.
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post #1904 of 1950 Old 02-26-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
... But when the two TS Captains start sitting in judgement and one writes a public open letter on Facebook one moth later slamming the dead captain, one has to wonder why thy didn't try and slow down the Bounty ever leaving the dock again....
To be fair, let me tell you that the Captain of Picton Castle showed incredibility at the moment someone had said to him that the Bounty has out of port, long before the boat sank. But that is not your main point and I guess you have a good question even if the answer is evident for one that had worked on a strong corporatist profession that grants to an individual a great dose of freedom.

That happens with teachers where each teacher is a kind of king in his own classroom, specially in what concerns public schools. There are among them obviously teachers that are unsuited to teach and that are with its unsuitability provoking involuntary prejudice on students.

During 35 years of activity as a teacher I have found many teachers that had serious authority/relationship problems and were unsuitable to teach and I only knew of two cases of teachers that have been retired from given classes and in those two cases we are not talking about authority problems but acute psychologically problems, a soft word to say that their head really did not work in a normal way and even so it took a particularly strong school direction to take the measure: They have been done classes in that state for 10 years or more.

You would say why have not the other teachers acted? Well maybe for the same reason the other Tall Ship Captains did not acted even if I am sure that many would consider Wallbridge a bit irresponsible and too adventurous to be a captain of a Tall Ship. When you have a profession where a great autonomy is granted to you you will have a strong inhibition to interfere with the realm of authority of pairs and if you do that without a very very strong reason you would be strongly criticized by all others. If a pair can question the authority, competence and judgement of another pair, than they could question your own. That's why this kind of professions are so closed and so corporate.

It would be needed a really strong case to have Captains questioning openly and clearly one of them. For instance, if Wallbridge had survived that disaster I am sure he would be put in question by them, as it is now, but it is needed a strong evident case to provoke a reaction against one of the pairs in a strong corporatist profession. It is like that and it has nothing to do with particular individuals.

Regards

Paulo
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post #1905 of 1950 Old 02-26-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
I got it so your answer is you are not going to care about your friend or call the police about the guy getting in the car drunk because you don't want to get sued or involved. You'd rather rail on about health care, the IRS and lawyers and regulations.

Me I will call the police so the drunk doesn't kill people even if gets get made at me.

Me I willcall my friend and ask him if he knows they are saying the storm has changed did he see that and that I am worried about he and his crew as all other boats and AIS signatures are heading or port. I would at least try and convince him as he is my friend. You will worry about being sued so you just watch him perish in silence. Or maybe one month letter write a public diatribe to him on Facebook.
Ig
Chef,

When you comment, at least make the comments on what was actually said.
And who is railing......could it be you? As to the friend who sailed, in actuality any suggestions to him would have likely have been discussed when he advised of the trip. And a follow up persuasion after departure that caused the friend to take an action that led to disaster might possibly have legal consequences. A discussion wherein there was simply informing of new developments in the storm is different as long as there was no attempt to get the friend to take action in accordance with the caller's insistance.

My guess is that the horse is not yet dead, so maybe we should keep beating him to make sure.
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post #1906 of 1950 Old 02-26-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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Chef,

My guess is that the horse is not yet dead, so maybe we should keep beating him to make sure.
\

The only horse thats dead is the Captains responsibilty in this. Thats apparent so if you are satisfied feel free to pass on the thread. There is absolutely nothing that can be done to prevent a person from having poor judgement that I know off

Obviously there are other horses (issues) in play here, and thats why they had an investigation. Its apparent to me that the shipyard has had some issues to address as well as the TSC who looked the other way.

None of these absolve Walbridge, your only horse in the race so you can move along now. Seems like horses arent the only ones who wear blinders.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
...Seems like horses arent the only ones who wear blinders.
Touche!

Did someone open a window? It's getting cold in here!


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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

If you think about it, the real problem with Bounty was

1. It leaked a lot of water (much more than normal even for a large wooded ship). and

2. The ship did not have adequate pump systems to deal with the water, and the pump systems they had were not maintained.

If the above two problems did not exist, I am 99% sure the ship and all crew would be with us today- no matter what there experience or inexperience or mistakes the Captain made. There are many ships that sail and survive storms equal to what Bounty hit and they are sailing with crews even less experienced than Bounty had. You must have the right tool for the job or no matter how good you are you will fail.

Now if I remember, the CG had assisted Bounty many years prior duing a storm off Florida (tried to pull the story from internet but could not find). The CG assisted by giving Bounty gas powered dewatering pumps.

Also, it was well know the Bounty was always leaking somthing like 30,000 gallons of water a day. 30,000 gallons of water is enough to fill a residental swimming pool- better have some serious pumps ( and back up upon back ups) to deal with that. So now you have a ship that will sink if any of your dewatering pumps fail- something is wrong with this picture. The floatation of your boat should not be dependent solely on a mechanical/electrical system.
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Last edited by casey1999; 02-26-2013 at 01:28 PM.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
If you think about it, the real problem with Bounty was

1. It leaked a lot of water (much more than normal even for a large wooded ship). and

2. The ship did not have adequate pump systems to deal with the water, and the pump systems they had were not maintained.

If the above two problems did not exist, I am 99% sure the ship and all crew would be with us today- no matter what there experience or inexperience or mistakes the Captain made. There are many ships that sail and survive storms equal to what Bounty hit and they are sailing with crews even less experienced than Bounty had. You must have the right tool for the job or no matter how good you are you will fail.

Now if I remember, the CG had assisted Bounty many years prior duing a storm off Florida (tried to pull the story from internet but could not find). The CG assisted by giving Bounty gas powered dewatering pumps.

Also, it was well know the Bounty was always leaking somthing like 30,000 gallons of water a day. 30,000 gallons of water is enough to fill a residental swimming poor- better have some serious pumps ( and back up upon back ups) to deal with that. So now you have a ship that will sink if any of your dewatering pumps fail- something is wrong with this picture. The floatation of your boat should not be dependent solely on a mechanical/electrical system.

Good point


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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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...If the above two problems did not exist, I am 99% sure the ship and all crew would be with us today- no matter what there experience or inexperience or mistakes the Captain made. There are many ships that sail and survive storms equal to what Bounty hit and they are sailing with crews even less experienced than Bounty had...
Be careful here, you're treading on dangerous territory. You're almost suggesting that the root cause is the vessel's condition, and not the Captain's decision to sail into the hurricane.

Granted, the Captain was ultimately responsible for both, but suggesting that the hurricane would have been survivable goes against 191 pages of the best Internet wisdom that no money can buy.

Incidentally, it also pretty much agrees with what I suggested four months ago here and here and here.


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