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  #1921  
Old 02-26-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
That cannot be true. That is more than 6000 L for each hour. The boat was almost completely rebuilt and nobody would accept the delivery of a ship on that condition.

What I have heard was that the boat even at dock, presently had to run the pumps every hour. They didn't say how much minutes each our but the way it was said it could not be for the bigger part of an hour and if you go to the rated output of the electric pumps you can get a grossly estimate of the leakage.

That is odd that would not be asked directly on the inquiries, I mean on the dock how much time they run the pumps for each hour. That would give a correct idea of the permanent leaking of the Ship.

Regards

Paulo

30,000 gallons per day is 21 gallons per minute (about 80 liters per minute). I understand they needed to pump this amount while sitting at the dock and the ship generators ran at all times in order to pump the water.

Yea, kind of crazy, but have you never done somthing crazy while drunk and with a beautiful woman?
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  #1922  
Old 02-26-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

From:
Decision to sail in storm in question | The Chronicle Herald


Decision to sail in storm in questionFebruary 14, 2013 - 2:30pm By BEVERLEY WARE South Shore Bureau UPDATED 9:15 p.m. Thursday

PORTSMOUTH, Va. — The manager of the Maine shipyard that worked on the Bounty just weeks before it sank last October said he never would have set sail in it with a hurricane on the way.

“I wouldn’t intentionally take a vessel into a storm if I could avoid it,” Joe Jackomovicz, who is now retired, said in an interview Thursday afternoon.

“It’s one thing if you’re out at sea and get caught. It’s another thing when you’re in a perfectly safe harbour. I couldn’t imagine that.

“If that boat had sailed in reasonable seas, if I could use that word, the boat would be in St. Petersburg (Fla.) now.”

Jackomovicz, who was manager of the Boothbay Harbor Shipyard, testified Thursday at the U.S. Coast Guard hearing into the sinking of the tall ship off Cape Hatteras, N.C., last Oct. 29.

He said the Bounty underwent about $3 million worth of work at the Maine shipyard since 2001, and though it was in good shape when it left Boothbay after a month-long refit last fall, it was still, in essence, a 50-year-old boat.

“If you still have a lot of the original structure in there, you still have an old boat.”

For example, the keel was hogging, or sagging, about 20 centimetres but he said that did not pose a safety risk.

Jackomovicz told the hearing he first worked on the ship in 2001 and was “flabbergasted” then by how much water the vessel was taking on.
“That boat was leaking water like a sieve,” he said in the separate interview.
When the ship’s new owner, Robert Hansen of New York, saw it, “his mouth just dropped,” Jackomovicz said.

Jackomovicz testified at the hearing that Capt. Robin Walbridge had told him the Bounty was taking on 114,000 litres of water an hour.
“I thought he must be nuts or something,” but Jackomovicz said it proved to be the case.
When the shipyard hauled the Bounty out of the harbour, “the amount of water coming out of the boat was unbelievable. The bottom was totally wormy” from spending a couple of winters in Florida.

But he said Hansen agreed to spend the money to do the work that needed to be done, and the shipyard replaced all of the planking below the waterline with white oak. Jackomovicz said the framing was in good shape, so at least 90 per cent of it was left untouched.

The next refit began in May 2006 and lasted about a year. The yard added 25 to 30 tonnes of lead in the keel for ballast and replaced the hull planking above the waterline with Douglas fir.

Jackomovicz said he presented Hansen with two options for different grades of fir and the owner selected the wood that was $30,000 cheaper.

“There were no defects in the wood we used,” Jackomovicz said.

When the Bounty came in again for work last September, Jackomovicz said he was shocked by the state of the wood above the waterline they had replaced just five years earlier.
He said one of his employees told him: “We found something that surprised the dickens out of us. That wood’s decaying.”
Walbridge was also surprised, he said.

“He was concerned about the decay, as I was. That’s something you never expected.”
While the shipyard’s project manager has told the hearing he was so worried about the rotting wood that he warned Walbridge to avoid bad weather, Jackomovicz said the wood wasn’t that bad and it was OK to leave further work on it until the next scheduled work period in a year.

“I’m basing my judgment on 40 years’ experience, he’s basing his judgment on probably five or six years’ experience,” Jackomovicz said of the project manager.

Jackomovicz said in the interview with The Chronicle Herald that the “decay up there (above the waterline) had no relation to the water coming in the boat.”

He said it was getting into the Bounty from below, and he suspects it was through the seams.

He told the hearing that the Bounty has “a lot of structural strength. ... The vessel was built so massive that it could take quite a bit of decay, degradation of the structure,” before it posed a problem.

Using the more expensive wood for planking wouldn’t have made a difference, he said.

Jackomovicz said he spoke with Walbridge about two days before the Bounty left the shipyard last October and asked him how he thought the vessel was doing.
“He said great, it’s tight, the vessel’s tight,” Jackomovicz said, but he took that with “a grain of salt.”
In my mind it was probably still leaking, but in (Walbridge’s) experience with how the vessel was leaking in the past, a little bit of leaking in the boat was nothing to him.”Jackomovicz said when he looked at photographs of the sinking Bounty, he was shocked it was still in one piece, which speaks to its structural integrity.

“I thought, my God, that boat’s still floating and intact. That was surprising to me,” he said in the interview.

“That tells me the fasteners were holding the boat together.”

He conceded, though, that the fasteners in the bottom of the ship could have given way, which could account for why there was so much water in the hull.

Jackomovicz said the galvanized fasteners were 50 years old and at that age can develop a halo of rust around the core, weakening them.

The hearing continues Friday.
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  #1923  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
That's really stretching it.

People drowned because the ship sank. The ship sank because the hull leaked. It was a significant cause and/or contributing factor. To say otherwise is to deny reality.

As I suggested four months ago, with the condition that boat was in, a similar result might have happened in an ordinary Noreaster. Sandy was huge, but not particularly violent as hurricanes go.

It will be interesting to see what the USCG says about this in their final report. I think we all can agree that they have not attempted to sweep anything under the rug, as was speculated several months ago.
I don't think the analogy was a stretch at all. The problem was how the boat was used. The fact that it left the dock for any passage should have been questionable, but it didn't leave on its own and the knife didn't stab anyone on its own.

Yes, the fact that it leaked was a contributing factor for sure. Just like the fact that the knife was sharp or maybe left on the counter. Neither would have done any harm if left where they were.

The boat was in disrepair..... This was well known by her decision makers.

The TSC knew the operation was sketchy.... They are not responsible, IMO, any more than anyone is for their neighbor's actions. One open letter in poor taste, doesn't convict the entire TSC.

I'm very interested to hear more about the owner. There could be another culpable party there. Seems we know little about them and what they knew or were doing at this point, which I find odd.
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  #1924  
Old 02-26-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
I don't think the analogy was a stretch at all. The problem was how the boat was used. The fact that it left the dock for any passage should have been questionable, but it didn't leave on its own and the knife didn't stab anyone on its own.

Yes, the fact that it leaked was a contributing factor for sure. Just like the fact that the knife was sharp or maybe left on the counter. Neither would have done any harm if left where they were.

The boat was in disrepair..... This was well known by her decision makers.

The TSC knew the operation was sketchy.... They are not responsible, IMO, any more than anyone is for their neighbor's actions. One open letter in poor taste, doesn't convict the entire TSC.


I'm very interested to hear more about the owner. There could be another culpable party there. Seems we know little about them and what they knew or were doing at this point, which I find odd.
I have said for a while the owner is hiding and there may have been major pressure from there. Every one has absolved the crew first mate because they felt "pressure" from the Captain. Most here said Svenson could speak out against the captain for fear of never sailing again. Wonder how that will play if it comes out Walbridge was told that by Hansen if he didn't meet the deadline for funding from the group in St Petersburg. Right Now he as plead the fifth as opposed to saying he was never in contact with Walbridge. Who is the only other person who could accuse the owner of ordering Walbridge to leave? Probably the dead Captain. Would Walbridge receive a pass like Svenson has if tat was ever found out ( probably never will) . It sure would be the only other explanation for why Walbridge left incredulously in face of all weather and maintainence issues.

No one blames the TSC for the sinking. However they may have contributed to the continued facade the ship was safe by their Own promotional literature where they said it was inspected by them and tey had a great safety program.

And again I call into question the Boothbay Shipyard. Conflicting testimony as Casey points out. Conflict testimony on weather Bounty was even able to head to sea at all. Incredible destruction in work done by them only 6 years before which should ever have been that bad. At the same times major lawsuit lost by the Boothbay Shipyard for the tall ship Shenendoah for similar work same time period . Something is wrong here. No records says one, boxes of records was another. Pictures taken to cover one employees ass never shown to his boss, only the CG when Bounty sunk. Employee looked like he didn't want to be blamed should something happen to Bounty when he said he warned they shouldn't leave the dock and his boss and company said she was ok til next years refit and maintainence and took the 3 million dollar refit check. Further investigation a the dock may have turned up issues similar to Shenendoah had it stayed around . Very very suspicious.

Yes it wasn't the knife that killed but maybe a few people had their hand on the knife other than the only one who can't speak....the dead captain. This doesn't exonerate him. He should never have left. However in the knife analogy , there may be coconspirators and enablers.

Stay tuned. Lawsuits will be filed. Can't claim the fifth there. Shipyard records will all come out as it becomes every man for himself, except Robin Walbridge he is dead. Maybe Claudia will file suit against Boothbay and Bounty LLC and Hansen.
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  #1925  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

If the owner put a gun to the Captain's head, the owner is equally at fault. It takes nothing away from the Captain's fault.

The First Mate would have saved lives if he decided to leave. Others would have followed.

Have we seen evidence, or even an accusation, that the shipyard didn't do what they were paid to do. Were they paid to change out all the underlying rotten beams or just the outside? Perhaps they should have refused to do the work, if it wasn't going to be done thoroughly, but that is debatable.
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  #1926  
Old 02-26-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Stay tuned. Lawsuits will be filed. Can't claim the fifth there. ..
Of course he can take the 5th. It's a universal Constitutional right in the US. Only way to force him to talk is for everyone (state, local, county) to grant immunity. They usually only do that if they have "bigger fish to fry" so they need the testimony - like they did in Watergate.
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  #1927  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
Have we seen evidence, or even an accusation, that the shipyard didn't do what they were paid to do. Were they paid to change out all the underlying rotten beams or just the outside? Perhaps they should have refused to do the work, if it wasn't going to be done thoroughly, but that is debatable.
Many auto repair shops, after finding somthing wrong with you car, will have you sign a release if you decide not to have them do the repair work. This will release them of fault if the failure to repair the item leads to an accident. If the boat yard did not have a similar release signed- could open them up to lawsuits.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
4
Have we seen evidence, or even an accusation, that the shipyard didn't do what they were paid to do. Were they paid to change out all the underlying rotten beams or just the outside? Perhaps they should have refused to do the work, if it wasn't going to be done thoroughly, but that is debatable.
It will be comming. In a lawsuit against Boothbay. Its only been 4 onths since the sinking and 1 week since the CG hearing. The lawyers for Walbridge, Christianson and Bounty LLC are sharpening their knives on this particular issue,.

The 40 year employee,Jakomovicz of the Shipyard testified he told Walbridge that she was ok and would be fine until the following years refit. He would be the expert. This contradicted the Shipwrights, Kowokowski alleged warnings to Walbridge as well as the secret photographs he took. Jakomivicz would have known and been a part of the two previous Bounty refits and maintainence as well as the Shenedhoah. Kolowkowski would not have even worked at Boothbay when that happened.

Essentially by him saying the frame/ previous work was rotting and suspect he was bringing attention to the previous work under the Boothbay Shipyard and Jakomovic into question as to why it rotted out in 5 years a lot less time thean it should have lasted. These are quality and build issues sounding eeirily similar to Shenendoah issues.

So you have contractors side your house and put a new roof on it. During the fix the workers discover that a leak occured and some of previous work and discover some of the frame is rotten. Some of this was worked on them 5-6 years previously and should have held up better. They verbally tell you that and tell you its not sound. No record of discussion or anything written. The workers however take pictures. You continue with the work, because their boss, the foreman comes buy and says it can wait another year. it will be fine the workers are overplaying it , but be sure and come back to us to fix it.

2 Weeks later a hurricane come through and the house crumbles. The new material is looking ok, but it looks like some of where it was held by the frame came apart and let the storm winds get inside and blow it apart.

Extent of Bounty's decay questioned | WAVY.com | Portsmouth, Va.

Quote:
PORTSMOUTH, Va. (WAVY) - On the third day of the U.S. Coast Guard's hearings into the sinking of the HMS Bounty in October, experts contemplated how seaworthy the Bounty really was.

Todd Kosakowski, the project manager who raised concerns about rotting timbers in the hull of the Bounty told investigators he was worried about the vessel's safety.

"I believe that they could have had an impact on what could have happened with the vessel," Kosakowski said.

Project manager Joe Jakomovicz, who has 40 years of experience, said Kosakowski's analysis is incorrect because Kosawkowski has "five or six years of experience."

Kosakowski worked with the Bounty when it visited Boothbay Harbor Shipyard in 2006 for repairs. He said the decay in the hull of the Bounty was not the worst he has ever seen.

His younger colleague believes the structural integrity of the hull was in question and has second thoughts about the decision of the Bounty's owners to set sail without a certificate of inspection.

"With 20/20 hindsight, it would have been a call to the local Coast Guard," Kosakowski said.
I know I keep including this, but feel I have to so it stays in perspective and no ones thinks I am defending him.. None of this has anything to do with exonerating or dismissing Captain albridges responsibilies for leaving in the face of a hurricane.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
Of course he can take the 5th. It's a universal Constitutional right in the US. Only way to force him to talk is for everyone (state, local, county) to grant immunity. They usually only do that if they have "bigger fish to fry" so they need the testimony - like they did in Watergate.
Sorry I mistated it. I know you cant be compelled testify against yourself. Thats when you are accused of something.

I meant and was referring to the probable suit of Bounty LLC against Boothbay Shipyard for misrepresenting tgheoir connstruction and poor workmanship. I didnt state it very well sorry.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

In general

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