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  #1931  
Old 02-26-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Essentially by him saying the frame/ previous work was rotting and suspect he was bringing attention to the previous work under the Boothbay Shipyard and Jakomovic into question as to why it rotted out in 5 years a lot less time thean it should have lasted. These are quality and build issues sounding eeirily similar to Shenendoah issues.

So you have contractors side your house and put a new roof on it. During the fix the workers discover that a leak occured and some of previous work and discover some of the frame is rotten. Some of this was worked on them 5-6 years previously and should have held up better. They verbally tell you that and tell you its not sound. No record of discussion or anything written. The workers however take pictures. You continue with the work, because their boss, the foreman comes buy and says it can wait another year. it will be fine the workers are overplaying it , but be sure and come back to us to fix it.
Hang on there a sec.. stick to the facts:

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
From:
Decision to sail in storm in question | The Chronicle Herald
...
But he said Hansen agreed to spend the money to do the work that needed to be done, and the shipyard replaced all of the planking below the waterline with white oak. Jackomovicz said the framing was in good shape, so at least 90 per cent of it was left untouched.
....
Jackomovicz said in the interview with The Chronicle Herald that the “decay up there (above the waterline) had no relation to the water coming in the boat.”

He said it was getting into the Bounty from below, and he suspects it was through the seams.

He told the hearing that the Bounty has “a lot of structural strength. ... The vessel was built so massive that it could take quite a bit of decay, degradation of the structure,” before it posed a problem.

Using the more expensive wood for planking wouldn’t have made a difference, he said.
To my mind he makes a good point. The many, many, pictures out there of the Bounty "sinking" show the decks awash but the vessel otherwise completely intact. If the frames or fasteners were in any way rotten or otherwise "faulty", having tons of water sloshing around inside the hull would have split the ship apart. This simply did not happen.

As someone who spends a lot of time around wooden boats and pretty-much only sails on wooden boats, I happen to agree with those who say the planking seams were the problem. If the above-water planks (not the frames!) were decaying, it's fairly likely that in rough weather like that the seams could open up and caulking could actually fall out - especially if it turns out that it was not installed properly.

With no working bilge pumps, the end result is simply a matter of time...
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Last edited by Classic30; 02-26-2013 at 07:17 PM.
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  #1932  
Old 02-26-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

We do not have copies of the Boothbay yard contract in front of us so it is pure speculation on what they are liable for in a workmanship defect type suit. You need to read the SOW to understand who was responsible for what. Back in my salad days I crewed on a 50’ wooden schooner out of MYC. A lawyer owned the boat and even with his deep pockets, we couldn’t afford to contract out all the work. The yard did some, we did the rest, and things we couldn’t afford were deferred to future years. That schooner liked to crack ribs so depending upon the severity, they were either replaced, sistered, or deferred. Unlike the roofing illustration, I am doubtful that there was a “5 year no leaks” warranty. Expressed or implied. In fact, Walbridge’s “tight” comment would indicate that he accepted the work. Further complicating matters was how Walbridge was directing some of the critical parts of the work himself, namely having his (unskilled) crew doing the caulking and buying the latex caulk from home depot instead of the proper marine grade for underwater use. If this was a sample of how Walbridge supervised yard work, I am sure the work performed five years previously was no better. While I imagine that Boothbay will get sued (anyone with “deep pockets” is going to get served), I don’t think anyone is going to collect based on any workmanship defects. Poor maintenance over the previous five years probably had more to do with the rot than improper fitting or fastening the hull planks.
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  #1933  
Old 02-26-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
.

....Jackomovicz said he spoke with Walbridge about two days before the Bounty left the shipyard last October and asked him how he thought the vessel was doing.[/B]
[B]“He said great, it’s tight, the vessel’s tight,” Jackomovicz said, but he took that with “a grain of salt."
“In my mind it was probably still leaking, but in (Walbridge’s) experience with how the vessel was leaking in the past, a little bit of leaking in the boat was nothing to him.”...
So, it seams to me that the boat leaked a bit....probably... Jackomovicz is not sure and you say the boat leaked 21 gallons per minute? Where do you have got that information?

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Last edited by PCP; 02-26-2013 at 08:43 PM.
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  #1934  
Old 02-26-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

We have a reputable sailNet poster ( MaineSail ) who reported that the innards and the ship was not in very good shape by his own observation. Maybe he will chime in.
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  #1935  
Old 02-26-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
So, it seams to me that the boat leaked a bit....probably... Jackomovicz is not sure and you say the boat leaked 21 gallons per minute? Where do you have got that information?

Regards

Paulo
From as far back as I can go the Bounty had a huge problem with hull leakage. The 30,000 gallon per day (21 gpm) is a figure I saw in an article that was refering to the ship maybe 4 years back.

When ship recently taken in for dry dock, she was leaking at 114000 l per hour which is about the 21 gpm. Back some years ago the CG put pumps on Bounty off Florida to dewater after the Bounty's pumps had failed. Even the lost crew memeber Claudine noted the crew were always fiddling with the generators (to keep the electric pumps running). Seems trying to win a war against 30,000 gph was a constant battle on Bounty, one in which sooner or later you are bound to loose.

I have not seen figures as to the leakage rate when she pulled out of the shipyard on the way to meeting Sandy, but as others have posted, she would normally leak at a high rate (even if the plank and caulking were good) due to the fact the wood had not had a chance to swell.

Jackomovicz testified at the hearing that Capt. Robin Walbridge had told him the Bounty was taking on 114,000 litres of water an hour.
“I thought he must be nuts or something,” but Jackomovicz said it proved to be the case.
When the shipyard hauled the Bounty out of the harbour, “the amount of water coming out of the boat was unbelievable. The bottom was totally wormy” from spending a couple of winters in Florida.
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  #1936  
Old 02-26-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Was trying to find more on historical Bounty leakage rates. Found this of G Captain site forum, interesting:

"It's interesting that an (PSC?) inspector in Europe required them to purchase that extra gas-powered pump. That means they identified the two major weakness, watertight integrity and inadequate de-watering systems.

Port State Control in Europe is very good. They know what to look for. (If it was in fact a PSC inspection.) If they had been subjected to another PSC inspection in Europe and the pump was found in poor condition likely would have gotten nailed hard. The failure or inability to fix previous problems is seen as a problem in and of itself."

This must be refering to the last trip bounty made to Europe.
More information:
http://www.imo.org/blast/mainframe.asp?topic_id=159

Last edited by casey1999; 02-26-2013 at 09:06 PM.
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  #1937  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
Jackomovicz testified at the hearing that Capt. Robin Walbridge had told him the Bounty was taking on 114,000 litres of water an hour.
“I thought he must be nuts or something,” but Jackomovicz said it proved to be the case.
When the shipyard hauled the Bounty out of the harbour, “the amount of water coming out of the boat was unbelievable. The bottom was totally wormy” from spending a couple of winters in Florida.
Righto.. so if the bottom was "totally wormy", all they needed to do was replace the bottom planking and the problem would be 100% fixed. ..and your previous post indicated they did that, with quality timber, and Wallbridge said it was "tight"....so we still don't know what the leak rate was when they headed out to meet Sandy other than that it must have been far less than 114,000 litres/hour.

As I posted earlier, it's largely irrelevant anyways. It's entirely plausible the ship could have been tight as a drum before leaving and still have the caulking fall out and the ship sink after the few few hours in a sea like that - if it wasn't installed properly in the first place.
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Last edited by Classic30; 02-26-2013 at 09:23 PM.
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  #1938  
Old 02-26-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartley18 View Post
Righto.. so if the bottom was "totally wormy", all they needed to do was replaced the bottom planking and the problem would be 100% fixed. ..and your previous post indicated they did that, and Wallbridge said it was "tight"....so we still don't know what the leak rate was when they headed out to meet Sandy other than that it must have been far less than 114,000 litres/hour.

As I posted earlier, it's largely irrelevant anyways. It's entirely plausible the ship could have been tight as a drum before leaving and still have the caulking fall out and the ship sink after the few few hours in a sea like that.
We only know it was somthing less than 114,000 lph. The ship should have pumping logs that would indicate what the leakage was over her history- those would be interesting.

"Jackomovicz said he spoke with Walbridge about two days before the Bounty left the shipyard last October and asked him how he thought the vessel was doing.
He said great, it’s tight, the vessel’s tight,” Jackomovicz said, but he took that with “a grain of salt.”
“In my mind it was probably still leaking, but in (Walbridge’s) experience with how the vessel was leaking in the past, a little bit of leaking in the boat was nothing to him
.”Jackomovicz said when he looked at photographs of the sinking Bounty, he was shocked it was still in one piece, which speaks to its structural integrity.
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  #1939  
Old 02-26-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
We only know it was somthing less than 114,000 lph. The ship should have pumping logs that would indicate what the leakage was over her history- those would be interesting.

"Jackomovicz said he spoke with Walbridge about two days before the Bounty left the shipyard last October and asked him how he thought the vessel was doing.
He said great, it’s tight, the vessel’s tight,” Jackomovicz said, but he took that with “a grain of salt.”
“In my mind it was probably still leaking, but in (Walbridge’s) experience with how the vessel was leaking in the past, a little bit of leaking in the boat was nothing to him
.”Jackomovicz said when he looked at photographs of the sinking Bounty, he was shocked it was still in one piece, which speaks to its structural integrity.
I agree that it should have pumping logs.. and probably doesn't ..but that still tells us nothing. Very few caulked timber vessels of any size, large or small, do not experience "a little bit of leaking" at various times before and after leaving port.

I'd suggest it might be more productive to focus on the faulty (or otherwise) workmanship - like exactly who did the caulking, how and what with - and/or bilge pumps rather than the end result.
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Last edited by Classic30; 02-26-2013 at 09:37 PM.
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  #1940  
Old 02-27-2013
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

There's several numbers being thrown about here and I just wanted to verify what I heard concerning the leakage. Listen to the video on Day 3 of testimony at the 1 hour 49 minute mark. 30,000 gp....hour not per day! Still that's hard to believe. Maybe he meant to say per day?
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