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Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > Vessels Lost, Missing, or in Danger
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  #191  
Old 11-02-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
The ship left on the 25th,THE CG is remarkable. Those are really the only facts which are really undisputed and have been verified.
This is also verified - "Tropical Depression 18 strengthened into Hurricane Sandy on Oct. 23, 2012"
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  #192  
Old 11-02-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

That video is incredible -- I can't imagine anyone with any sailing experience chasing hurricanes in a 50-year-old wooden ship.
Seems that standard practice when facing really heavy weather was to send down the topmasts. Wonder if they did that before they left the dock. Can't imaging them doing it while underway. Those ships also had heavy shutters to protect the stern windows in a following sea. Wonder if this version of the Bounty had them and if they were deployed.
If not then flooding through the stern windows is another possibility.
I have to confess that through an act of incredible stupidity I've actually been in conditions that almost duplicate those faced by the Bounty.
Simply put, at the beginning of March, 1962, four of us decided to sail from Long Island to Bermuda. We were all young men and young men in groups are exponentially more stupid than any one individually. We got caught by one of the worst winter storms to hit the east coast, and the strength and direction of the wind forced us to take the inside track. We survived because we we on a very strongly-built steel ketch, because we did know our boat very well and because of our seaswing stove. I figure I owe the ocean one so I am very cautious.
In any case, we were running in really mountainous seas and we did everything we could to keep our speed as slow as possible. Our real problem was the huge following sea. The boat would rise to the crest and then plunge down to the trough. During all of this the boat had to be steered kep at a slight angle to the crest and to the trough. If we came straight down the crest the bow of the boat could be buried enough that it would coem up in time and we'd be pitchpoled. If we were too far orr we could be rolled. It meant whomever was at the helm had to pay attention every second and and react when necessary. We relieved the helm every 90 minutes or so, you just couldn't keep it up for longer.
I suspect the Bounty was in the same situation and I wonder if they had enough experienced people to keep relieving the person at the wheel. It doesn't matter whether they were under sail or power, the conditions would have been the same.
I just can't understand how anyone could put so many lives at risk, Not just the crew but all those Coast Guard pilots and rescue swimmers ... it's just beyond me.
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  #193  
Old 11-02-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Coast Guard to conduct investigation into HMS Bounty sinkingPORTSMOUTH, Va. - Rear Adm. Steven Ratti, the Coast Guard 5th District commander, ordered a district formal investigation Thursday to determine the cause of the sinking of the Tall Ship Bounty, a three-masted sailing ship, 90 miles southeast of Hatteras, N.C., Monday, which resulted in the death of one crewmember, and one crewmember who remains missing.

A district formal investigation consists of a Coast Guard investigating officer who will receive evidence and testimony using formal rules and procedures and is convened when the information to be derived has considerable regional significance, or may indicate vessel class problems or areas of technical importance.

The district formal investigation will probe every aspect of the accident and will determine as closely as possible:

the cause of the accident;
whether there is evidence that any failure of material or equipment was involved or contributed to the casualty;
whether there is evidence that any act of misconduct, inattention to duty, negligence, or willful violation of the law on the part of any licensed or certificated person contributed to the casualty;
whether there is evidence that any Coast Guard or other government agency personnel caused or contributed to the casualty; and
whether the accident should be further investigated by a Marine Board of Investigation.
The Investigating Officer, Cmdr. Kevin M. Carroll, is the chief of the Coast Guard 5th District Marine Inspections and Investigations Branch and will be assisted by investigating officers from Coast Guard Sector North Carolina in Wilmington, N.C.

Coast Guard investigations of marine casualties and accidents are for the purpose of taking appropriate measures for promoting safety of life and property and are not intended to fix civil or criminal responsibility.

A district formal investigation often takes several months to properly complete.


http://www.uscgnews.com/go/doc/4007/...Bounty-sinking

Last edited by scottbr; 11-03-2012 at 03:18 AM. Reason: added link to source
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  #194  
Old 11-02-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
This incident also demonstrates the fallacy of the importance of years of experience and/or a USCG Captain's license. Neither one means anything without common sense.
X100.
Everyone who knows the captain, including his good friends, said that Robin W is a good captain. May be he was a good man, good teacher to the youngsters (He has no children of his own), good in mooring and docking the boat in good weather, has sailed the Bounty for 17 years. If I were the parent of the young girl victim, I would ask the questions:

1. How seaworthiness of Bounty in fighting the hurricane
2. How much experience of the Captain sailing in this condition
3. What is the preparedness of the crews to sail through the storm.
4. Obviously, the green crews believed their captain and trusted his judgement, do they feel the same way now ?
5. Did anyone challenge the Captain to take shelter to Norfolk and up Bay?

It is sick to my stomach and feel very bad for the families. The deaths are avoidable. It may be a blessing for the captain lost his life so haunting of this human tragedy goes with him.
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  #195  
Old 11-02-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
You guys are really too much. Sitting in your computer chairs making speculations and pronouncements with only the evidence you can find on your computer screens....and then whats worse...making judgements with the limited information you have. Some of you have appointed yourself members of the jury, donned spacesuits, taken an oath not to allow or listen to any evidence or arguments which are contrary to what you think, listened to only the first 10 minutes of the prosecutors evidence, and delivered your verdict. Hohw can you even form an opinion on this until there are more facts....especially first hand statements....
Dave
Actually we know a lot more than that.
1) We know that Sandy was reported a huge dangerous storm, long before the Bounty left.
2) We know that Sandy was headed up the east coast and prevailing weather systems made it very unlikely that Sandy would head out to sea.
3) We know that Sandy was most likely to come ashow somewhere between Delaware and New York
4) We know that all this information was available to the captain and crew of the Bounty.
5) We know that the original Bounty was manned by 44 officers and crew. This version had less than half that and there is no way they could have had the experience sailing a full rigged ship needed to take her through a storm of this magnitude.
6) we know that the Bounty heades south toward the storm rather than east to try to go around it.
7) We know that it is ultimately the captain's responsibility to go or no go and to set the course.
8) We know the Bounty sank on the western edge of Sandy with the loss of two lives.

There is no way we can know exactly what happened that caused the Bounty to sink but that really isn't the main question, at least not for me. What I really would like to know is why, given all that was known at the time, the Bounty left port in the first place.
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  #196  
Old 11-02-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Doesnt anyone else remember the projected storm track published on
the 24th ( I think it was way back in this thread ) that showed
the overwhelming probability of the storm curving out into the Atlantic
without comming ashore ? I have to say honestly on that day
it does look that by hugging the coast line he could make it to
Florida. Now I believe the 25th and for sure the 26th (on the
2nd day out) the storm models began to show storm path
curving into new england. I can justify him leaving port leaving
with info from the 24th but on the 26th the storm news was bad
and he had a chance to find safe harbor somewhere. On the 26th
is where I think his decision making was faulty and he even sent
the facebook message after two rough days at sea that he seemed
to recognize that he had underestimated the difficulties ahead.

I am not trying to pass judgement but I do think it fun to recreate
what info was available day by day and speculate whether the
captain knew it and then then look at his actions to try to understand
his "bets" as essentially that is what all our decisions are. Some are
carry more risk than others.

I would like to see a replay day by day of the ships position and the
weather forcasts that were available on those days.

You can bet that from the survivors we will someday know more
about the conversations and decisions made aboard the ship
on a day by day basis and how both the crew and the ship
were handling the rough conditions. I think it would be safe
to say most of the survivors had had not had any sleep
for 36 or maybe even 48 hours and the skipper maybe
even 72 hours.. How could anyone sleep
in 25 to 30 foot seas in that small of a boat and probably
they were in a constant state of panic for fear of dying.

So in addition to the crews lack of experience and training, being short handed,
and overwhelming fatigue, we might have had a ship that was
basically being operated by maybe two people who had
not slept for a couple of days. Yessir there will be movie
rights worth millions. Wonder who gets the millions ?

Last edited by preventec47; 11-02-2012 at 11:41 AM.
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  #197  
Old 11-02-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by preventec47 View Post
Doesnt anyone else remember the projected storm track published on
the 24th ( I think it was way back in this thread ) that showed
the overwhelming probability of the storm curving out into the Atlantic
without comming ashore ?
One of the outstanding characteristics of this storm from its inception was the lack of consensus on its probable track. The European model and others showed it hitting the east coast anywhere from Va. Beach to N.Y. early on, before it hit Cuba. There was a huge cone of probable tracks.

There is simply no excuse for leaving port when he did. Human life is more important than saving property. It does not really matter what he did after he left port, other than his choice to head South toward the storm, and his failure to seek a port after leaving.

It also does not matter what a great guy he was, or how outstanding his seamanship was, or what experienced yachtsman think about his plans.

This case will be decided by a jury of ordinary people, with competing expert witnesses testifying about whether he failed to meet the standard of a reasonably PRUDENT professional captain.

Even if the ship sank due to material failure, or a freak wave, or mechanical breakdown, it does not matter. Those are all things that are reasonably foreseeable by a prudent professional captain who heads out in that kind of weather.

I believe a jury can easily find the causal connection to this tragedy. The only issue will be damages.
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Last edited by jameswilson29; 11-02-2012 at 12:07 PM.
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  #198  
Old 11-02-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Guilty as charged....lets electrocute him...oh hes already dead and couldnt defend himself and he paid with his life...oh thats right he went down with the ship because he knew the SN jury would convict him

So lets say you are right.He went on a suicide mission and took 15 people with him.

Lets move on to the compensation phase since the SN jury has already convicted him. What should the compensation be?

So lets say you are right and he made an eggregious error in judgement, which cost the ship, and one life. Lets say this is true. Lets say a jury finds this and makes an award. So what????
This happens all the time in real life with auto accidents, product injury cases etc.

What is it about this that attracts the amateur Perry Masons ( showing my age), the spectators in the Collesuem of SN to rant on and on about this? Is it your like for a train wreck? What fascinates you about this story?

People are dying every day from poor judgement. Why isnt anyone focused on that young mother who didnt heed the warnings to evacuate on Staten Island who had the babies ( 2 and 4) ripped out of arms and killed by the storm surge? They just found tem yesterday...dead. Shouldnt she have known the storm was coming, shouldnt she have evacuated...why did she try and drive out through the surging water...maybe they should look at all the statements shes made about kids in her short life....find the one where she says raising the kid is a pain and then go after her for killing them because of her negligence....everything you are saying about this captain could be said about her.

Dont give me the excuse you are looking for a learning or teaching moment Focusing in on tradgedy is human we all feel for these people. But talking about them add nauseum and affixing blame, making assunptions not knowing ALL the facts, assasinating the reputation of a dead man while sitiing at your computer desk eating twinkies smacks of the mobs going to the Roman Collesuem to watch the inevitable outcome and cheering it on.

Thats my humble opinion and only mine. Take it for whats its worth one mans opinion right, partially right, or wrong. Excuse me I need to get some coffee with my twinkie.

dave


Dave
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Last edited by chef2sail; 11-02-2012 at 12:29 PM.
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  #199  
Old 11-02-2012
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HMS Bounty in trouble...

Chef,

I think I understand your concern for the dignity of those lost. However, you ironically tried and convicted all those that you've accused of trying and convicting Bounty.

Some feel, like I do, that the loss of human life was avoidable in this circumstance and discussing it is not as reprehensible as some feel. I recall the exact prediction on the day they departed CT. I hauled out the day before. This novice crew would have been influenced by the Captains decision making. There didn't need to be a gun to their heads. If my daughter were aboard, I would be doing more than just simply analyzing a decision making process at this point. I think you would too.
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  #200  
Old 11-02-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Chef, I don't agree that this is a lynch mob a la some of the Treyvon Martin discussion.

There seems to be enough clear fact here to condemn the captains decisions in putting to sea. Setting sail in an old square rigger, with an untrained crew that would have been undersized if they WERE trained, and then heading towards a hurricane, hoping to dodge it doesn't meet my criteria for good seamanship or even basic judgement.

Think about this - suppose Sandy HAD stayed well offshore - that would have put the Bounty in or near the "safe" quadrant of the storm at which point the high winds would have been blowing against the Gulf Stream with consequent NASTY effect on sea state.
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