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  #201  
Old 11-02-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Why isnt anyone focused on that young mother who didnt heed the warnings to evacuate on Staten Island who had the babies ( 2 and 4) ripped out of arms and killed by the storm surge? They just found tem yesterday...dead.

Dont give me the excuse you are looking for a learning or teaching moment Focusing in on tradgedy is human we all feel for these people. But talking about them add nauseum and affixing blame, making assunptions not knowing ALL the facts, assasinating the reputation of a dead man while sitiing at your computer desk eating twinkies smacks of the mobs going to the Roman Collesuem to watch the inevitable outcome and cheering it on.
Dave
Because Dave, the last time I checked this forum is a "SAILING" forum and it
is what we want to talk about. IF it were a child care forum we would
be talking about the dead babies. I for one am trying to find out more
of the facts in the hopes his decision making can be better explained.
I personally have made as stupid or worse mistakes but luck was with
me... We learn from our mistakes and sometimes from the mistakes of
others and we sometimes die when luck is not with us.

Maybe they should make videos of the half dozen worst preventable
sea tragedies and make all captains view the video each year in order
to renew their license. That type of thing occurs in some other industries.

I do somewhat agree that we have done as much as we can with
available info. Until we get the feedback from the survivors which could
be substantial, we probably wont be able to form many more opinions.

I dont expect the Coast Guard investigation will turn up much because
they dont want to find very much. The guys who refurbished the ship
a few years back would be experts as to the type and manner of construction but they better watch their butts or could be named as a cause
of problems occuring.

Also someone said several 1st Engineers have quit the job ostensibly
because of the impossible condition of the ship and what I inferred
to be the unwillingness to assume responsibility etc. Wait till we
hear from those guys.

My engineering background makes me want to know the angle
of the ships pitching to and from between waves tops to troughs
and what the bow or stern looks like when reaching the bottoms
of the troughs. One fellow talked about a similar situation
where his boat would bury the bow under the water comming
down to the trough..

Just cant wait till we hear from the crew so we can know when
the masts broke along with other stuff that made it apparent
the ship had crossed the threshold from survivability.

How bout this as a question.... did the Captain wait too
long to abandon ship or to call for rescue ?

If I am not mistaken, his first distress call was 10:30 pm
right? Abandon ship then at 4:00am. That is a long long
four and a half hours for a crew that probably all thought
they were going to die.
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  #202  
Old 11-02-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

I agree with Dave about the excessive captain-bashing. The video said it all. The caption on SA had it right. But this is a learning opportunity and will continue to be so as the facts emerge. People are interested because we are all threatened by storms. It's only natural to want to know what happened because it is much more personal and relevent to sailors than to those on land. Every sailor learns from these types of tragedies.
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Last edited by smurphny; 11-02-2012 at 02:13 PM. Reason: Sp
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  #203  
Old 11-02-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

The things that don't make sense to me is the Capt states in the video he likes to chase hurricanes. But then he states the ship normally sails when at sea at 4-5 knots, and the ship can only go sideways to the wind or downwind. Does not sound like the ship could hove to. The Capt also states the diesel auxillaries are underpowered for the ship and are only used when coming into port.

So this Capt wants to chase hurricanes in a ship that is limited to sailing only 90 degrees off the wind (and with lee way probably more like 100 degrees or more), and the ships diesels were not strong enough to power it in any kind of stong wind or high sea condition.

Sounds like a suicide mission to me.
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  #204  
Old 11-02-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Let's say, for arguments sake, that the conversations held regarding this incident lead to safety measures that ultimately result in a reduction of loss of life at sea. Would it be worth questioning the decision the captain made (and possibly tarnishing his reputation) to head out to sea in the direction of a hurricane, that at the time was decimating the Bahamas, if that meant saving lives in the future?

We are all emotionally invested in the loss of the life of a sailor. We can't help it. We all know the call of the sea and most of us have put ourselves into a situation that we later regretted. But trying to stifle the conversation, when emotions are high? I don't agree with that.

After the shootings in Aurora, CO, officials were asking those who were calling for an end to the sale of assault weapons to please withhold their criticism and demand for action out of respect for the deceased. Where is that conversation today? But it will begin again the next time it happens. And it will.

The same goes for sailors needlessly dying at sea. One side wants to know how this could have happened, the other side says remain silent out of respect for the deceased. And if we follow the latter, the conversation dies and only re-emerges when another life is avoidably lost at sea. And that too will happen again if measures aren't put into place to prevent it.

We can't prevent all loss of life at sea but we can certainly take certain measures to reduce that loss. Heading out to sea in the direction of a hurricane is one of those measures.
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  #205  
Old 11-02-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
People are dying every day from poor judgement. Why isnt anyone focused on that young mother who didnt heed the warnings to evacuate on Staten Island who had the babies ( 2 and 4) ripped out of arms and killed by the storm surge? They just found tem yesterday...dead. Shouldnt she have known the storm was coming, shouldnt she have evacuated...why did she try and drive out through the surging water...maybe they should look at all the statements shes made about kids in her short life....find the one where she says raising the kid is a pain and then go after her for killing them because of her negligence....everything you are saying about this captain could be said about her.
Dave
The difference is a Capt is trained and licensed to take responsibility of a ship and crew, and is held 100% responsible.

I do not know much about the story of the loss of the 2 kids in new york other than it is a tradgedy, as is loss of the Bounty, Capt and crew. But anyone can become a parent, and become one without training or licensing (sometimes I wish their where training and licensing because raising kids is the hardest thing I have ever done, and I done quite a bit). I think most parents try to do the best they can, and its somthing they need to do (or should do) 24/7, 365 days a year for at least 18 years. Some parents have other problems like paying bills, and finding food and shelter. So I will not judge this woman, only grieve with her,

The Capt on the other hand did not have to sail towards the eye of a storm in a ship that appears was not fit for the task at hand, he had other options. With 20 or so years of experience, a lot of people think he should have choosen the other options. Yea we might all be wrong, and time will reveal more information that might prove us worng, most of us have an open mind.
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  #206  
Old 11-02-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JulieMor View Post
Let's say, for arguments sake, that the conversations held regarding this incident lead to safety measures that ultimately result in a reduction of loss of life at sea. Would it be worth questioning the decision the captain made (and possibly tarnishing his reputation) to head out to sea in the direction of a hurricane, that at the time was decimating the Bahamas, if that meant saving lives in the future?

We are all emotionally invested in the loss of the life of a sailor. We can't help it. We all know the call of the sea and most of us have put ourselves into a situation that we later regretted. But trying to stifle the conversation, when emotions are high? I don't agree with that.

After the shootings in Aurora, CO, officials were asking those who were calling for an end to the sale of assault weapons to please withhold their criticism and demand for action out of respect for the deceased. Where is that conversation today? But it will begin again the next time it happens. And it will.

The same goes for sailors needlessly dying at sea. One side wants to know how this could have happened, the other side says remain silent out of respect for the deceased. And if we follow the latter, the conversation dies and only re-emerges when another life is avoidably lost at sea. And that too will happen again if measures aren't put into place to prevent it.

We can't prevent all loss of life at sea but we can certainly take certain measures to reduce that loss. Heading out to sea in the direction of a hurricane is one of those measures.
Agree, we as a society have become too politically correct.
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  #207  
Old 11-02-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JulieMor View Post
We can't prevent all loss of life at sea but we can certainly take certain measures to reduce that loss. Not heading out to sea in the direction of a hurricane is one of those measures.
Fixed it for you.
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  #208  
Old 11-02-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

OK back from my twinkie

Quote:
Let's say, for arguments sake, that the conversations held regarding this incident lead to safety measures that ultimately result in a reduction of loss of life at sea. Would it be worth questioning the decision the captain made (and possibly tarnishing his reputation) to head out to sea in the direction of a hurricane, that at the time was decimating the Bahamas, if that meant saving lives in the future?
JuilieMor
Just like I said...a teaching moment would be the answer from many of you. I agree with you if it lead to a safety procedure which would save someones life it would be worth while. I dont hink the discussion of sailing into a hurricane warrents what is common sense. And the lessons to be learned would be from the RESULTS of an impartial investigation not the Colleseum members cheering on the decapitation of the dead captain. So my issue here is not about learning a lesson for all sailors, that can be done after this truly gets investigated and thoroughy thought out. My issue is the rush to judgement and the finger pointing at the captain at such an early moment in this tradgedy. It may come to bear that he had 80 % of the responsibilty for the accident, but we dont have any idea of that now. Again the colleseum mentality hasnt even heard a statement of ONE of the survivors, but the captain bashing has begun.

I supervise over 1500 employees. A great amount of my time is dealing with issues related to personel. Usually there are two sides to a story and then there is the truth which may be closer to one side than the other but usually lies between the two stories. What I have learned humbly as I grew more mature, was that I had to be careful not to go with my INITIALevaluation and facts concerning an incident, and allow the ivestigation to play out without predisposing myself to an opinion. I cant say I was always good at that or even now perfect about that, but letting facts surface is better to realizing what really happened instead of speculating.

Quote:
other side says remain silent out of respect for the deceased
No I didnt say that either. Remaining silent until some of the facts are known and you have at least eyewitness acccounts would seem to be more rational and just. Read some of these posts villifying the Captain and ridiculing him. Since you just recently joined go back to the threads on Rule 62, the Farlonnes incident, the Encinada incident, the british Lady and read the threads. These threads perhaps got almost as much if not more paticipation than the gun or anchor threads. The blame game starts early on in those threads too. Even before very many facts were in evidence. Mmost of the "lessons" came only after all the facts were revealed and resulted in good lessons ie teathers and sea state close to shoal area ( Farlonnes), crew sleeping ( Encinada- the initial collesuem reaction had them looking for a freighter who cut them up), coming in during a Rage, how a crew cant affect best judgement of a captain when they get sick ( rule 62)

What I object to is the rush to judgement...remember that phrase. It can means taking a few facts and then CONSTRUCTING scenarios to fit what YOU want it to appear to be. When that happpens other facts can be ignored or overlooked. What I have seen in some of the posts here is a rush to judgement on the captain. Weve seen posts looking at the righting moments, sea state, condittion of the vessel etc. We see hypothesis from a few facts. No eyewitness accounts yet, except a hypothesis of a conspiracy as to why that has not occured. Even a recent statement that the Coast Gaurd would hold hearings, but wont want the facts to come out. Why would someone say that? Why would someone say its a suicide mission? Do you think the captain though as he did this that he wanted to commit suicide with 15 people?

One thing I have not posted here which I guess I should. Like wingnwing I have been on the Bounty and met the captain. If someone asked me for a judgement of him, and this is a big time snap judgement, he seemed professional, knowledgeable about his ship, a teacher of others and dedicated to his responsibility for the ship and its crew.

I guess its human nature for people to love to take something, think the worst, and then fabricate reasons to support their conclusions

I am withholding my personal opinions about what happened till I find out more facts, but one fact I know is that if he is found to have been the whole cause he paid the ultimate price.
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Last edited by chef2sail; 11-02-2012 at 03:06 PM.
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  #209  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

In the world of aviation, I know that certain kinds of conditions require
certain kinds of equipment and special training certifications.
I wonder if in the nautical world if certain kinds of boats either
by size or type or category etc could legally be restricted
from venturing into certain sea states. Further that
any captain after the fact having violated the rules could
be liable legally for having done so. Carrying passengers
verses not is a big distincition in aviation and in this case
the untrained crew or many of them might be characterized
as passengers based upon actual training history.

Also, it has been mentioned several times that the
winds going against the gulf stream would result
in worse conditions, ... why not invent a new term
of airspeed called air vs water speed or hydromic relative
air speed etc. I assume the seastate of a 25 knot wind
pushing against a 7 knot gulf stream would be the equivalent
of a 32 knot wind over calm seas. Right ?
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  #210  
Old 11-02-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
I assume the seastate of a 25 knot wind
pushing against a 7 knot gulf stream would be the equivalent
of a 32 knot wind over calm seas. Right ?
preventec47
NO. Not at all.
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