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  #321  
Old 11-05-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

At this point I would expect the governing authorities to take whatever measures they feel necessary to prevent a tragedy like this from happening again. If that meant they re-classified a boat or changed the rules and doing so would result in a reduction in future loss of life, I would think they should do that. IMHO.

Because of my personal experiences, I have an immense respect for the forces of Mother Nature. I would never, under any circumstances, leave port if I thought there was even a remote chance of meeting up with a hurricane. Never.

Now, I have no idea if the Coast Guard would ever consider creating certain requirements that would call for Coast Guard clearance before setting sail because of this incident. But I can see insurance companies having an impact by voiding policies where they determined a captain or owner of a vessel put the ship and crew in jeopardy.

In the case of the Bounty, there has been sufficient testimony thus far (though not under oath) and evidence to support the belief of many that the ship was less than seaworthy and that the crew was too short-handed and too inexperienced to handle serious weather and therefore the captain should never have set sail. For me, all I had to know was Hurricane Sandy was out there waiting to swallow up anyone willing to take her on.

My girlfriend is in insurance and she said if the insurance company was aware of the Walbridge video, they may have cancelled the owner's policy. Also, quite possibly, Walbridge would be denied life insurance if he tried to apply. The Coast Guard may do nothing beyond the investigation but failure to obtain insurance can motivate people to do things they don't want to do.

In my years in construction I found financial motivation be much more powerful than heartfelt concern when it came to instituting safety measures on the jobsite. Maybe this incident will have that kind of impact or maybe it will all be forgotten until it happens again.
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  #322  
Old 11-05-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

So that we may appease those they take offense to our "jump to conclusions" opinions and findings, I suggest you add the following disclaimer to your posts.

"Initial preliminary findings suggest the cause of the Bounty's sinking (and loss of life) was due to __________, a final report will be issued once all evidence and testimony has been reviewed and studied."
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  #323  
Old 11-05-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

A woman, who did have a soul, died on a boat trying to keep a schedule. Got it. Doesn't change a thing I've read above from anyone, nor render any of it off limits, IMO.
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  #324  
Old 11-05-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
So that we may appease those they take offense to our "jump to conclusions" opinions and findings, I suggest you add the following disclaimer to your posts.

"Initial preliminary findings suggest the cause of the Bounty's sinking (and loss of life) was due to __________, a final report will be issued once all evidence and testimony has been reviewed and studied."
I'm not sure who you're referring to, but speaking for myself, I don't take any offense. You don't need to bother with your proposed disclaimer, because I don't take your speculation seriously enough to need any disclaimer.

I merely choose not to give any credence to Internet rumors and speculation. I'm willing to wait for real facts to emerge. Since the USCG has announced that they will investigate, I'm confident that a useful report will eventually come out, and it will be worth waiting for.

At some point I'll get bored enough with your repetitious re-posts of your previous posts, and other circular logic, that I'll just stop reading this topic and move on.

I have the opposite view of some of you. It seems you're determined to stir up controversy by posting speculation. Then when some of us refuse to go along, you get offended and try to kick the hornets nest even harder.

I've seen (and participated in) enough safety investigations to realize that new, previously undisclosed facts often lead to new and unexpected interpretations of events. And if not, so be it. I'm just willing to wait to see what the real truth is.
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  #325  
Old 11-05-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
I'm not sure who you're referring to, but speaking for myself, I don't take any offense. You don't need to bother with your proposed disclaimer, because I don't take your speculation seriously enough to need any disclaimer.

I merely choose not to give any credence to Internet rumors and speculation. I'm willing to wait for real facts to emerge. Since the USCG has announced that they will investigate, I'm confident that a useful report will eventually come out, and it will be worth waiting for.

At some point I'll get bored enough with your repetitious re-posts of your previous posts, and other circular logic, that I'll just stop reading this topic and move on.

I have the opposite view of some of you. It seems you're determined to stir up controversy by posting speculation. Then when some of us refuse to go along, you get offended and try to kick the hornets nest even harder.

I've seen (and participated in) enough safety investigations to realize that new, previously undisclosed facts often lead to new and unexpected interpretations of events. And if not, so be it. I'm just willing to wait to see what the real truth is.
Not referring to you,
carry on.
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  #326  
Old 11-05-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Some more information:

Walbridge told a small group that the Bounty would be leaving for St. Petersburg, Fla., that night instead of the next morning. He wanted to get a jump on a massive weather system coming from the south that forecasters were calling “historic” and that one already had dubbed “Frankenstorm.”

The National Weather Service’s marine forecast for the area described the coming confluence of systems: “HIGH PRESSURE MOVES OFFSHORE ON FRIDAY AS A COLD FRONT APPROACHES FROM THE WEST. A COASTAL STORM ASSOCIATED WITH TROPICAL CYCLONE SANDY MAY IMPACT THE AREA LATE IN THE WEEKEND AND INTO EARLY NEXT WEEK.”

Walbridge formed a circle with his thumbs and index fingers, and told listeners to look at his right thumb. It represented the southeastern section of the hurricane.

“He said he wanted to get to the southeast quadrant and ride the storm out,” said New London Dockmaster Barbara Neff. No one raised objections.

....

While people may have been reluctant to question Walbridge’s plan, that’s not true today. A debate is raging about his decision to go to sea with a monster storm looming. At least three tall-sailing-ship captains have said they would not have tried that passage with Sandy barreling northward.

....

“Rest assured that the Bounty is safe and in very capable hands. Bounty’s current voyage is a calculated decision … NOT AT ALL … irresponsible or with a lack of foresight as some have suggested. The fact of the matter is … A SHIP IS SAFER AT SEA THAN IN PORT!”

....

The first sentence of his biography on the Bounty’s website says: “According to Captain Robin Walbridge, Bounty has no boundaries. As her captain, he is well known for his ability and desire to take Bounty to places that no ship has gone before.”

.....

Bounty's ill-fated trip in face of hurricane scrutinized | HamptonRoads.com | PilotOnline.com
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  #327  
Old 11-05-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

PCP, Thanks for link,
http://hamptonroads.com/2012/11/boun...ne-scrutinized

Quote:
“There are a lot of armchair sailors saying, ‘What the hell was he doing out there?’ ” said Richard Bailey, a captain who worked with Walbridge and has known him for more than 20 years.

“He had a strategy,” Bailey said. “Aside from being dead, it makes great sense. I think a professional examination will say it was a good strategy, but it didn’t take into account a complete and utter loss of power.”

Last edited by casey1999; 11-05-2012 at 05:15 PM.
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  #328  
Old 11-05-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post

“He had a strategy,” Bailey said. “Aside from being dead, it makes great sense.”
Isn't he supposed to give credit to Yogi Berra for that quote?
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  #329  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
Isn't he supposed to give credit to Yogi Berra for that quote?
"When you come to a midchannel marker---Take it!"
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  #330  
Old 11-05-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

About the sea conditions:

"It's one of the biggest seas I've ever been in. It was huge out there," said coastguard rescue swimmer Randy Haba, who helped pluck four crew members off one of the canopied life rafts and a fifth who was in the water.

HMS Bounty crew member dies and captain missing in stormy seas | World news | guardian.co.uk

About the possible reasons of generator failure, consequent impossibility to run the pumps and consequent engine failure:

Hansen said Walbridge was attempting to head east, away from the hurricane, when the ship began taking on water.

"At that time it wasn't considered an emergency, even though they had several feet of water inside the boat," Hansen said.

"She's a very large ship, and that little bit of water really does not do anything to her. But somehow we lost power in our generator and in our main engines, and as a result, we could not pump any water out of the boat."
As the waves continued to batter the ship, "it just got to the point where she couldn't stay afloat anymore."

Sandy claims 'Bounty' off North Carolina - CNN.com


From the gCaptain Forum, posted by a professional sailor (1600 Master)


I was sailing on board the tall ship Bounty as a guest in May and was not tasked with pumping the bilges. My photos of the engine room exist simply because I'd never seen an engine room with wooden bulkheads, or a wooden bilge. The engine room was cramped, the main engines were (Caterpillar?), and generator (yellow...Caterpillar?) were in custom made sound-proofed boxes. In the photos you can see the battery powered fire alarm, and typical electrical outlet mounted low on the FWD bulkhead.

The pumps...If I remember correctly, the main bilge pump was in the engine room, and was mounted low on the FWD bulkhead and was electric.

With just a small amount of water sloshing around the engine room everything on board would have shorted out.


You can see in my photos just how shallow the bilge is in the engine room.

... There were no other “emergency” pumps located higher than those in the engine room that I remember, and I do not believe she was required to maintain any other emergency pumps.

I do not believe she was required to have a licensed engineer/QMED or oiler on board.

Below the weather deck she was basically open bow to stern. The next level below had many different transverse wooden bulkheads built for structural integrity but not watertight integrity. If there was 2’ of water in one area, say in the lower crew berthing area, then there would be 2’ of water in the engine room based only one the curvature of the hull, and slope of the keel.

The bulkheads on the Bounty were not intended to isolate areas from free-flow water movement; they were not required to do so by the ABS or the USCG.

There was one watertight door installed to appease a disgusted marine inspector years ago. It separated the lower FWD sleeping area from the bosun stores area. There were also numerous non-watertight doors between decks.

As an old, wooden, movie prop, she leaked constantly and each watch was tasked to monitor the bilge water level and pump her out as needed.

Underway, in rough seas she would have been leaking like mad and would have been totally dependent on her electric pumps…which were easy to short out due to their location.

…….
…….

From another professional as a reply:

A licensed engineer worth his or her salt would have walked off the gangway after one look around.

Thanks for this, and thanks to everyone else who posted up. While I have an interest in the history of sail, and how our predecessors lived and worked, I never really paid much attention to contemporary replica tall ships, because it never occurred to me that someone would be so foolhardy as to take one out in a storm of Sandy's magnitude. I always thought of them as tourist attractions and museum pieces that were only sailed in fair weather. Silly, silly me. I've gotten a real education from this thread.


.....
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Last edited by PCP; 11-05-2012 at 07:27 PM.
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