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  #341  
Old 11-06-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjazzdad View Post
Sorry Paulo, but you are misinformed. The HMS Bounty was built to the original drawings for the 1784 Bounty, found in the British Admiralty archives (she was made slightly larger to accommodate the filming of the movie). Also the budget argument doesn't hold true in that era - think of films like Ben Hur - huge money was spent by Hollywood in those days. After launch in Nova Scotia, HMS Bounty was SAILED to Tahiti for location filming. (snip)
All very true. MGM made a "making of" documentary of the 1962 movie, and it included footage of the construction of the ship. As to other poster's claims that materials used in the construction of the original ship are no longer available, that is quite inaccurate. British ships of the period used Oak planking for the hull, and of course Oak is still available. If you view the video posted earlier of the ship on fairly rough seas from 2010, there is a glimpse down the companionway. Note the woodwork framing - scarfed joints in hardwood.

She was sailed to Tahiti (that's pretty literally halfway round the world) and back, and she also crossed the Atlantic at least once, touring the UK a few years ago. The ship was definitely well built, it was anything BUT a prop, in the usual Hollywood sense.
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  #342  
Old 11-06-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

While it is true that she has sailed around the world, it is not true that she is a replica of the original, nor that she was just slightly larger. Everyone here knows that one foot of LOA has an exponential impact on ship size.

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  #343  
Old 11-06-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brewgyver View Post
All very true. MGM made a "making of" documentary of the 1962 movie, and it included footage of the construction of the ship. As to other poster's claims that materials used in the construction of the original ship are no longer available, that is quite inaccurate. British ships of the period used Oak planking for the hull, and of course Oak is still available. If you view the video posted earlier of the ship on fairly rough seas from 2010, there is a glimpse down the companionway. Note the woodwork framing - scarfed joints in hardwood.

She was sailed to Tahiti (that's pretty literally halfway round the world) and back, and she also crossed the Atlantic at least once, touring the UK a few years ago. The ship was definitely well built, it was anything BUT a prop, in the usual Hollywood sense.
Ok, it is possible. It does not much sense that a boat that was made to be burned some months after was built to the same specifications of a boat to last a normal life simply because it would be a big waste of money, but I admit it was possible and some that built the boat said recently that it was a well built boat.

But there are other factors to take in consideration: That boat largely out lasted the normal life s of a wooden boat, I mean the life span that was expected in the time boats like that were built. The reason because the life span was of about 30 years was because after that it was more expensive to maintain a boat in seaworthiness condition than to build a new one.

Wooden boats can be maintained 3 times more time or even forever if all wood is replaced by new one, but the reason of that maintenance is not an economic one, but a symbolic one and the costs are huge.

I know that the boat has been recently restored but the sums to maintain one of this boats fully operational are really huge.

"At one point in her life, lack of maintenance caused the vessel to temporarily lose her United States Coast Guard license, but Bounty was restored. The vessel's bottom planking was restored at the Boothbay Harbor Shipyard in 2002. ... In April 2006, Bounty again arrived in Boothbay Harbor for further renovation including refurbishing the ship's bow and topside decking. Following this renovation, Bounty was scheduled to repeat the famous voyage of the original Bounty...... a US$3 million restoration ...Bounty's owners had tried, unsuccessfully, to sell the vessel since 2010. The ship was for sale as of 2012 for US$4.6 million. In summer 2012, the ship was stationed in San Juan, Puerto Rico. She took part in OpSail 2012 and, in August 2012, was in Halifax. In September and October, 2012, Bounty was in drydock in Boothbay Harbor for maintenance. She was launched from the Boothbay Harbor Shipyard on 22 October 2012."

To give you an idea we (the Portuguese) have several sailing ships in sailing condition, but the most famous and older (the only with a wooden hull) is only maintained in museum condition. I mean the boat is on the water, can be towed in fair weather and does not make water but is not in condition to sail a storm. The same happens with many European wooden famous boats, from the Cutty Sark to the Vasa.

The reason was that to make it fully operational it would have costed two or three times morel. The recovery costed about 6 million USD in 1998 (and the costs of doing that in Portugal are certainly a lot lesser than in the US). It is true that the recovery work was bigger, but it is also true that today that would cost probably two times more. After that the Ship received more expensive maintenance work in 2007. This is just to give an idea of the costs of maintaining a wooden sailing ship.

I am just pointing out a problem that is common to many tall ships that are not owned by state or other powerful institution that can afford to spend millions a year to maintain these kind of boats: Simply a foundation will not be able to maintain the ship that is not commercially viable and that represents a huge spending of money. They have the boat for sale for less than what costed the last 10 years of maintenance.

It was said, including by the crew that the engines and generators were not very trustworthy and I doubt the ship was in "as new condition" in what regards structural seaworthiness.

Of course I like old ships but I guess that measures have to be taken to assure they are properly inspected and that those that make this inspections remain accountable in what regards his work and even so taking one of then to a hurricane

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 11-06-2012 at 12:47 PM.
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  #344  
Old 11-06-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

It's possible that a modern-day wood boat can be made to last a lot longer than those before the days of good bottom paint and preservatives. Toredo worms ate up many of the old boats but they are not a problem now as long as the bottom has a good coat of paint. The old square riggers used copper sheeting sometimes but worms can get past it if there's any opening.

The surprising thing in those comparative specs is that although nearly twice as long as the original, the new boat had the same draft. This would seem to change the righting moment considerably.
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  #345  
Old 11-06-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Survivors speak... (can someone post the link to the video on the GMA website - I don't have sufficient "tweets" yet!) Here's the text...

"Crew members from the HMS Bounty, who were rescued as the tall ship sank of the coast of North Carolina last week, are speaking for the first time about their experience as they weathered Hurricane Sandy and the loss of two of their crew mates.

The dramatic sinking of the Bounty and harrowing rescue of its crew last Monday created some of the most enduring images during Hurricane Sandy. In an ABC News exclusive, the ship's 14 surviving crew members are opening up about their rescue after they tried to weather the storm.

They described the chaos as they abandoned ship and the Bounty was slammed by a giant wave. The 14 survivors, still together a week after the disaster, are still chiefly concerned with honoring those who didn't make it -- their captain, Robin Wallbridge, and deckhand Claudine Christian.

For first mate John Svendsen the call to abandon ship was one of the toughest he'd ever made.

"We determined a safe time when we knew the ship would still be stable and we could get everyone on deck and change our focus from saving the ship to saving every life," said Svendsen, who credits Capt. Wallbridge's endless drills and preparation for the 14 lives that were saved.

But the ship's leadership lost all control once a giant wave broadsided the ship, knocking some of the crew -- already in their survival suits -- into the roiling sea.

"It was [like a] washing machine in an earthquake … while going down a giant slide," crewmember Laura Groves told ABC News.

The crew says their unexpected adventure began on October 25, as the ship set sail from Connecticut. Captain Wallbridge wrote on Facebook that with Hurricane Sandy on the move, "a ship is safer at sea than in port." But three days into the voyage, the crew found themselves in the middle of the ferocious storm, with heaving waves three stories high.

"The weather was so bad and we had so little control," said Douglas Faunt.

"It took every ounce of my strength to focus through to survive," said first mate Svendsen.

Winds were tearing at the crew at 70 mph, and by the fourth day the ship, which was constructed for the 1962 film "Mutiny on the Bounty" and later featured in "Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest," had been taking on water for 24 hours.

Crew members on the Bounty had trained for rough weather countless times, they said.

"We been through two other hurricanes," Daniel Cleveland said. "We were literally launching the life rafts, and she went over."

The ship was thrown on its side, tossing crew members into the waves. They wore red survival suits designed to help them float.

"At that moment I couldn't be sure who the red suits were around me," Cleveland said.

Hours after being thrown into the water and clambering into the life rafts, they began to hear the beating rotors of Coast Guard helicopters. But they were far from safe, with the weather uncertain and one of the most daring Coast Guard rescues in memory underway.

"When the helicopters showed up, I think everyone in the life raft just started hooting and hollering," Cleveland said.

Suddenly a Coast Guard rescue swimmer launched himself from a chopper and swam toward them -- popping his head into their raft and heaving himself in.

"I was immediately filled with a huge sense of relief, and he asked, 'Who's ready to get out of here?' And we were all about to say 'Yeah,' and then the raft just gets crushed with this wave and knocks him pretty good," said Cleveland.

Svendsen was the only survivor not in a raft. He swam to a floating beacon, which had been devised by Capt. Wallbridge.

"So I give my life to Robin, and to his ingenuity, to his leadership, that I'm here today," Svendsen said.

Those who were pulled out alive had no idea who else had survived.

"When we got up there everybody cheered each time we saw a new face come into that helicopter," Joshua Scornavacchi said.

But not everyone made it home. Claudine Christian was one of the Bounty's newest crew members, and was already part of the ship's family.

"She was having the most fun ever on the best ride ever. She was so happy," Doug Faunt said.

Christian's last text to her mother read, "If I do go down with the ship & the worst happens… just know that I am truly genuinely happy!!"

The Coast Guard found her body hours later, and couldn't revive her. The body of Capt. Wallbridge has not been recovered. For the 14 who made it survival is bittersweet.

"[I'm} going to miss them the rest of my life," said Faunt, wiping away tears.

Today the entire surviving crew is still mourning and in shock, but grateful.

"After this, I'm never going to have another bad day in my life," said Faunt, and the rest of the 13 survivors nodded.
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  #346  
Old 11-06-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by smurphny View Post
The old square riggers used copper sheeting sometimes...
Imagine the cost of THAT today!

The Weather Channel has a special (already) on "Superstorm Sandy". Yes, meteorologists have deemed this to be a superstorm. Anyway, the more I learn about this storm and what they knew and when, the less evidence there is to support the decision for anyone to choose to leave port (Navy excluded), let alone head into the direction of this massive storm (no one excluded).

In the two most recent investigations of sailing tragedies that included loss of life, the findings concluded the captain and/or crew were responsible for failure to avoid. I would imagine their investigation of the Bounty disaster will be looking at the same thing - did the captain take the necessary measures to avoid?
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  #347  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mistermizu View Post
Survivors speak... (can someone post the link to the video on the GMA website - I don't have sufficient "tweets" yet!)
HMS Bounty Survivors: Crew of Ship Sunk During Hurricane Sandy Speak of Lost Shipmates - ABC News
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  #348  
Old 11-06-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

The interviews and first hand accounts and sentiments of the crew of the Bounty are finally starting to surface. They seem to have a great deal of respect for their captain, more than a few of the posters on Sailnet.

One doesnt have to look far to see the effect of social media ( I would classify Sailnet as this) or the news media and so called experts to obfuscate and put spin, no matter what direction on events. You have seen it over the last year with the presidential election in the forefront of this. Some of the attack ads we have all seen have left me wondering is this what we have come to. Is civility no longer part of our culture where we feel we ll have the right to judge...and then post out feelings with no regards to the people involved.

So who do you beleive...someone who was in the incident and sailed with him and knows him...or someone who reads reports from others and then blogs about it to bolster thier conclusion or spin.

Like I have previously said there is a lot more to surface concerning this incident while I dont understand the Captains actions in sailing into a hurricane, I still will withhold my judgement until there is more information. Less than a week has gone by since this happened. far to soon for me to have an accurate pitcure of the whole event.

Dave
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  #349  
Old 11-06-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
...
Like I have previously said there is a lot more to surface concerning this incident while I dont understand the Captains actions in sailing into a hurricane, I still will withhold my judgement until there is more information. ..

Dave
Dave, give me just one possible reason for the Captain to sail to a Hurricane, risking the live of his crew, when if he stayed in Port even if we would have the possibility of having some damage on the boat, would have the crew safe.

Let me point out that the Picton Caste whose captain chose to stay in the same port (and said that did not understand why Bounty's Captain had choose to sail to a hurricane) did not sustain any damage with the storm and even if he had, he would have done the right thing putting the live of his crew above a possible damage on the boat.

You said that we did not know if the storm had any relevance to the lost of the boat.

The crew says now:


"The weather was so bad and we had so little control," said Douglas Faunt.

"It took every ounce of my strength to focus through to survive," said first mate Svendsen....

But the ship's leadership lost all control once a giant wave broadsided the ship, knocking some of the crew -- already in their survival suits -- into the roiling sea. ...The ship was thrown on its side, tossing crew members into the waves. They wore red survival suits designed to help them float.



Do you still have any doubt know that the Storm was relevant to the lost of the ship?


There is a thing that really I am unable to understand:

Has you all know the boat had been already in bad trouble some years back, in a situation very similar making water in a storm and without the generators out of service ( pumps dead) and the boat was saved only because the coast guard was able to deliver some diesel running portable pumps.

Even if if I find that there is not any possible valid reason for the ship to have sailed out of shelter to a Hurricane, why have not they learned with the last incident and have on board independent, portable or not, diesel pumps?

Compared with the millions of dollars that cost the maintenance of that boat their cost would be insignificant.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 11-06-2012 at 01:25 PM.
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  #350  
Old 11-06-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

One thing we need to give someone credit for having the survival suits on board.

I am sure that saved some lives. As far as I know survival suits are not a Coast Gurard requirement for the Bounty, so someone deserves credit for spending the money that saved some crew.
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