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  #371  
Old 11-06-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

I watched the interview this morning. I'm not surprised they were fond of their Captain. For sure, they all knew the storm was coming, so they must have trusted him to stay aboard. That is precisely why he is going to be held responsible for this event. That isn't a conclusion based on facts, that is just a fact in and of itself. He was the leader.

What I found most interesting was the noted lack of any information about why the boat was taking on water. It is not uncommon that exclusive media interviews are negotiated in advance, particularly when there are pending legal actions. I find it hard to believe the interviewer would have forgotten to ask how the boat came to take on water and sink.

The ongoing fact that this Captain had taken Bounty into a hurricane before are mounting. Now the crew acknowledged it. This is a risk management concept that is well taught. People take on risk, survive it and begin to believe they are able to manage it. In reality, the risk isn't a 100% killer and they won the previous hands. If you keep playing, you eventually come up craps. Call it the preponderance of evidence, if you are offended by a conclusion prior the government report.

Now here is something I find ironic. So far, the only purported facts that I have read that have proven false where those in defense of the Captain: sailed to protect the ship, sailed East of the storm, didn't sink off Hatteras. Maybe I missed some.
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  #372  
Old 11-06-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Also many on this thread have made this HUGE deal about the Captains u tube post. Many have made insinuations of his incompetance from that. When the actual crew memebers on baord with him that fatefull day now say something which either contradicts or gives another angle of the captains personality, you dont want to accept that. An eyewitness account and the interviews of people who really worked with that captain seem to be to be a more valid view of the captains personality, termperment, and abilities than social media posts. Let me ask another quest. I have yet to hear any of you admit that yet. Maybe thats because you have already rushed to judgement.

.
I do not think anyone is making a huge deal of the interview with the Capt. We are just taking the Capt for his word. And most people find what the Capt said in the interview shocking, everyone from the media, yachties, professional seamen/women. The interview seems to be serious, with the Capt apparenty giving factual statements. That is what most people find shocking.

How can you accuse people of exploiting facts for there own use when in this case the "facts" are coming directly from the person in question. I agree (and stand-by waiting) that we need more facts, and to compare the facts the CG finds with the "facts" the Capt gave in that interview will be most interesting. But if the facts the CG finds are different than the "facts" the Capt presented in the interview that initself (at least in my opinion) brings question as to the reliabiliy of the Capt. In my opinion, the Capt should speak the truth at all times, and especially when making public statements. To me this is a sign of a true professional.
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  #373  
Old 11-06-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
I do not think anyone is making a huge deal of the interview with the Capt. We are just taking the Capt for his word. And most people find what the Capt said in the interview shocking, everyone from the media, yachties, professional seamen/women. The interview seems to be serious, with the Capt apparenty giving factual statements. That is what most people find shocking....In my opinion, the Capt should speak the truth at all times, and especially when making public statements. To me this is a sign of a true professional.
I've watched parts of the interview several times, and once the initial shock factor wore off, I started thinking he was speaking partially in hyperbole. The interview was a puff piece, and he was showing off his feathers to impress the non-sailing audience.

I do take him at his word that he has gone out in hurricanes before, and I do suspect that the root cause of his poor judgement this time lies in the fact that he got away with it those other times. I've seen that sort of incremental complacency happen many times before.
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  #374  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
I've watched parts of the interview several times, and once the initial shock factor wore off, I started thinking he was speaking partially in hyperbole. The interview was a puff piece, and he was showing off his feathers to impress the non-sailing audience.

I do take him at his word that he has gone out in hurricanes before, and I do suspect that the root cause of his poor judgement this time lies in the fact that he got away with it those other times. I've seen that sort of incremental complacency happen many times before.
Ok maybe we agree on somthing. I also watched the interview several times thinking what the hell is he trying to say. I think he was puffing the feathers but also largely speaking the truth.

That is why early on in this thread I said "the best Captains are probably green Captains" Green Capts do not normally take unecessary risk. They may make mistakes, but they do not take risk. The Bounty Capt took a huge risk and this time, he lost.
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  #375  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
Ok maybe we agree on somthing. I also watched the interview several times thinking what the hell is he trying to say. I think he was puffing the feathers but also largely speaking the truth.

That is why early on in this thread I said "the best Captains are probably green Captains" Green Capts do not normally take unecessary risk. They may make mistakes, but they do not take risk. The Bounty Capt took a huge risk and this time, he lost.
...which is why I think that even if he sat out this hurricane, he would have likely gone out in this week's Noreaster, or some other severe but sub-hurricane conditions, and ended up with the same result. It was an accident waiting to happen.

When I say that the presence of the hurricane may have been a moot point, this is what I am talking about. It seemed that, given the condition of the boat, inexperience of the crew, etc., something was going to happen eventually to sink the boat and possibly lead to similar fatalities. I'm confident that the USCG will uncover it.
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  #376  
Old 11-06-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
...
Also many on this thread have made this HUGE deal about the Captains u tube post. Many have made insinuations of his incompetance from that. When the actual crew memebers on baord with him that fatefull day now say something which either contradicts or gives another angle of the captains personality, you dont want to accept that. An eyewitness account and the interviews of people who really worked with that captain seem to be to be a more valid view of the captains personality, termperment, and abilities than social media posts. Let me ask another quest. I have yet to hear any of you admit that yet. Maybe thats because you have already rushed to judgement.
....
Dave,

I have not any doubt the Captain was a hell of a sailor and a very easy going guy with a great personality. it turns out that a good Captain can not have some of those qualities and can even be a less good sailor but has to have an indispensable one: responsibility and a correct evaluation of risks in the sense that he should take none except in a situation where a calculated risk is the lesser risk.

Obviously that was not the case with this Captain and it looks like that story of chasing hurricanes is not only a bad joke since it seems that in fact the Ship had been and survived several hurricanes. A crew has confidence in its Captain, specially if it is a great sailor, a charming guy and assumes that he knows what he is doing. That's why he is the Captain. It turns out that this one did not knew what he was doing. I don't mean in what regards to sail well that boat but in regards to take the unacceptable and stupid risk to take the ship into a Hurricane and it seems not one time but several times.

I agree with Minnewaska when he says:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
..

The ongoing fact that this Captain had taken Bounty into a hurricane before are mounting. Now the crew acknowledged it. This is a risk management concept that is well taught. People take on risk, survive it and begin to believe they are able to manage it. In reality, the risk isn't a 100% killer and they won the previous hands. If you keep playing, you eventually come up craps. Call it the preponderance of evidence, if you are offended by a conclusion prior the government report.

Now here is something I find ironic. So far, the only purported facts that I have read that have proven false where those in defense of the Captain: sailed to protect the ship, sailed East of the storm, didn't sink off Hatteras. Maybe I missed some.
Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 11-06-2012 at 07:20 PM.
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  #377  
Old 11-06-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

You know, this thread is starting to remind me to watch The Caine Mutiny again soon.
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  #378  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
I've watched parts of the interview several times, and once the initial shock factor wore off, I started thinking he was speaking partially in hyperbole. The interview was a puff piece, and he was showing off his feathers to impress the non-sailing audience.

...
He was doing precisely what he said he liked to do in the interview regarding hurricanes: Getting a good ride out of them.

In fact he described exactly what he was going to do to his crew before setting sail and that was precisely what he said on the interview regarding chasing hurricanes.

He said to his crew:

Walbridge told a small group that the Bounty would be leaving for St. Petersburg, Fla., that night instead of the next morning. He wanted to get a jump on a massive weather system coming from the south that forecasters were calling “historic” and that one already had dubbed “Frankenstorm.”

....

Walbridge formed a circle with his thumbs and index fingers, and told listeners to look at his right thumb. It represented the southeastern section of the hurricane.

“He said he wanted to get to the southeast quadrant and ride the storm out,” said New London Dockmaster Barbara Neff. No one raised objections.


Bounty's ill-fated trip in face of hurricane scrutinized | HamptonRoads.com | PilotOnline.com

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 11-06-2012 at 07:35 PM.
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  #379  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

I'd like to hear from some of the more experienced guys that would likely
know the kind of effort and specific activities undertaken by the
crew in the kind of weather that the Bounty experienced in the
last 3 or 4 days. I wonder if there was nothing for the crew to
do but ride it out inside or are there activities outside on the
deck that are required during a storm. Does anyone think
that sleep of any kind is possible during those kinds of rough
seas? Just trying to see if fatigue or lack of able bodied
personnel to perform required tasks could have contributed
to the outcome. What about the captain? First mate too
I guess. If the captain rests, the first mate has to
keep the ship on course. Any other remifications
I am missing about the prolonged exposure of the crew
and captain to very rough conditions ?
Also, assuming the Captain knew many hours or days
before that he had really screwed up, were there likely
any other decisions he could have made to improve
the outcome. Such as maybe calling for CG help much
earlier .... perhaps timed before sundown so as to
allow rescue during daylight hours instead of 4:00 am
in the dark. Is that right or was the rescue 4:00 pm
in the afternoon ?
Lastly, is it felt that for the past 4 to 8 hours before
the final abandon of ship, were the weather conditions steadily
getting worse or could the weather conditions actually been
improving even if the ships physical condition was deteriorating?

What I am getting at is the statement made by the captain
to the effect he was going to wait till morning for some kind
of decision making... that leads me to believe weather conditions
may have been improving... maybe because the hurricane
was passing by and getting farther away etc.....
If he could just hold out till morning .... But unfortunately he
could not.

Thanks for the patience for my questions as I have only
been captain in one sea going calamity. 35 knot winds and
5 foot seas blew my 18 ft Hobie over with one passenger
aboard a half mile offshore. Big difference but it doesnt
seem like it when you are gulping sea water while fighting
for air.
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  #380  
Old 11-06-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Whilst not all that relevant to the topic at hand, just to clean a few things up:

Quote:
Originally Posted by smurphny View Post
.....
Toredo worms ate up many of the old boats but they are not a problem now as long as the bottom has a good coat of paint. The old square riggers used copper sheeting sometimes but worms can get past it if there's any opening.
Teredo worms are still a problem in many parts of the world today, but with the advent of plastic boats you don't hear about it so much - paint can get chipped by anything striking the hull..

FWIW, copper sheeting was installed primarily for it's anti-fouling properties - not worm resistance. Even back then it was prohibitively expensive, so only those who needed it for speed (eg. tea clippers) or could afford it (eg. parts of the navy) used it. Everyone else fixed a thin layer of cheap sacrificial timber to the outside of the hull with hundreds (thousands!) of copper nails. The worms burrow into the outer layer and thus leave the hull alone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by priscilla View Post
"A SHIP IS SAFER AT SEA THEN IN PORT" You gotta be kidding!...A northeaster is coming up the coast in a day or so lets all put out to sea!
Let's get this straight: A SHIP, yes; your boat - NO. In many ports throughout the world, now and for many years, all shipping is told to LEAVE PORT by the Harbourmaster if a major storm or hurricane is approaching or give a bloomin' good reason why they can't!

Unless it's an extremely well-protected harbour, a ship (modern or old, but especially a timber one!) is far safer at sea in a storm for the following reasons:

1. The sides (and rigging) of a ship presents a serious amount of resistance to the wind which even the largest of anchors or mooring lines may not hold, potentially causing the ship to be run ashore and wrecked.

2. Tied to a dock, a ship presents a large target for small yachts like yours to hit when (not if!) they break their moorings, potentially sinking the ship at the dock and preventing the use of that dock for relief efforts afterwards until the ship is refloated.

3. Tied to a dock, the weight/windage of the ship against the dock could cause the dock to break up - damaging/sinking the ship and, again, rendering the dock unusable for relief efforts afterwards.

So, no, they're not kidding. It's reality... and exactly the right thing to do if you're the captain of a fragile timber relic like the HMS Bounty... but how you handle the ship and where you go after you leave port is another matter entirely.
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Last edited by Classic30; 11-06-2012 at 09:14 PM.
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