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  #381  
Old 11-06-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartley18 View Post
...Let's get this straight: A SHIP, yes; your boat - NO. In many ports throughout the world, now and for many years, all shipping is told to LEAVE PORT by the Harbourmaster if a major storm or hurricane is approaching or give a bloomin' good reason why they can't!

Unless it's an extremely well-protected harbour, a ship (modern or old, but especially a timber one!) is far safer at sea in a storm

.....

So, no, they're not kidding. It's reality... and exactly the right thing to do if you're the captain of a fragile timber relic like the HMS Bounty... but how you handle the ship and where you go after you leave port is another matter entirely.
I guess the Captains of those boats, I mean fragile timber relics, also called tall ships, know a lot more than you about that.

At least 4 captains of tall ships come forward saying that they did not understand the Bounty Captain decision to sail away from port to face an Hurricane. One of them had the ship on the same port where Bounty was and the ship did not suffer any damage with the bad weather.

There is not a single tall ship captain, or for that matter any ship captain that, face to all criticism pointed to a dead captain, come forward defending the Bounty Captain. Don't you find this strange? Would you not have wanted to defend a tragically dead colleague from unfair accusations, if that was possible?

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 11-06-2012 at 09:14 PM.
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  #382  
Old 11-06-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
There is not a single tall ship captain, or for that matter any ship captain that, face to all criticism pointed to a dead captain, come forward defending the Bounty Captain. Don't you find this strange? Would you not have wanted to defend a tragically dead colleague from unfair accusations, if that was possible-PCP
?

Maybe their professionalism has taken center stage and they arent rushing to juggement, Are their only 4 tall ship captains in the world....hardly, there are many.

Just a side note the Captain of the Pride of Baltimore interview today says hes witholding jusdgement until more facts come forward and the inquirey by the GC is done.

So PCP and others, we have all established that the Captain has some of the degree of responsibility here. Why do you guys keep railing on about it? Why do you find it necessary to keep pounding on that point like a broken record? We all have learned that sailing into a hurricane isnt a good idea. So what is your purpose to keep bringing this up? You seem fixated on this one point. Other posters here like JulieMor have asked questions concerning other causations and have expanded their views without exhonorating the Captains responsibilities.

Surely there are other lessons you want the newbies and others to learn from this arent there?

Dave
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Last edited by chef2sail; 11-06-2012 at 09:47 PM.
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  #383  
Old 11-06-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
He was doing precisely what he said he liked to do in the interview regarding hurricanes: Getting a good ride out of them....
Well no, he was not doing precisely what he said. He said he "chases hurricanes" and likes to get into in the southeast quadrant. But he wasn't actually doing either. By chasing in the southeast quadrant, I believe that he means he follows the hurricane as it moves to the north, staying in the southeast quadrant where the following winds would push him to the north. In this position, I would think that, if conditions get to be more than he can handle, he can reach off further to the east, and allow the hurricane to move further away from him. In the southeast quadrant he would always have a way out from this.

It appears from the path he followed that he did not attempt to get to the east as he stated he would. And I wonder what he was thinking, because such a position would require him to beat close-hauled to make headway toward the south, which was impossible on that boat. And, of course, he wasn't chasing the hurricane - it was chasing him. He left himself no way out.

So one of the mysteries to me is why he said he would say he was going east of the hurricane on a southerly itinerary, since the breezes east of the hurricane would be pushing almost directly against him.

So beyond simply being a stupid decision to go out, it seems to be self-contradictory that he would say he's heading for the southeast quadrant on a southbound itinerary. It just does not make sense, but I suspect the experts at USCG will cover all these questions and more to get to the true root cause.
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  #384  
Old 11-06-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

I think I can settle who's to blame once and for all. It's the Republicans. They caused the global warming that caused the hurricane that sunk the Bounty. Or was it Obama that caused global warming? I don't know. But I just read in the Chicago Tribune that Dewey won!
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  #385  
Old 11-06-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
?

Maybe their professionalism has taken center stage and they arent rushing to juggement, Are their only 4 tall ship captains in the world....hardly, there are many.

Just a side note the Captain of the Pride of Baltimore interview today says hes witholding jusdgement until more facts come forward and the inquirey by the GC is done.

So PCP and others, we have all established that the Captain has some of the degree of responsibility here. Why do you guys keep railing on about it? Why do you find it necessary to keep pounding on that point like a broken record? We all have learned that sailing into a hurricane isnt a good idea. So what is your purpose to keep bringing this up? You seem fixated on this one point. Other posters here like JulieMor have asked questions concerning other causations and have expanded their views without exhonorating the Captains responsibilities.

Surely there are other lessons you want the newbies and others to learn from this arent there?

Dave
The captain had not some responsibility it has ALL RESPONSABILITY.

He was only there because he decided to be there, in a Hurricane leaving a safe port, where a similar tall ship stayed without any problem.

I guess that are you and others like you that keep posting what I consider nonsense regarding his absence of responsibility or possibility of diminished responsibility.

Regarding teaching the newbies I do not consider myself more knowledgeable that a new member or someone that post less than me. There are some that are more knowledgeable I am sure.

The newbies are us regarding these guys that are all professional sailors, mates and captains and what they say about us is this:

"This Bounty thing has really stirred up a lot of people all across the board and reading the posts on various forums is enlightening and sometimes amusing but some of the stuff from the recreational crowd sends a chill up your spine. A good result though is that gCaptain is getting some mention as a source of professional insights and comment. Heaven only knows how many of their readers faint away like 19th century school girls when they come across the pointy stick style of seafaring criticism. They don't seem to appreciate facts that are much blunter than a plastic sailboat's bow.

...

If nothing else this whole Bounty affair is showing us that there really is a gulf between the recreational (including the TSC) hobbyist and the professional mariner. These guys are really really scary, a lot scarier than I ever believed they were. I think this storm has opened a few eyes but unfortunately it seems to have driven some of the survivors into a deeper defensive position, from fear or just embarrassment I don't know."


Regards

Paulo
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  #386  
Old 11-06-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
The captain had not some responsibility it has ALL RESPONSABILITY.
I haven't heard anybody deny that the captain bears the burden of responsibility. That goes without saying, and does not need to be repeated ad nauseum.

However, it is WAY premature to declare that nobody else at all has any responsibility. Your suggestion is absurd.

The captain cannot singlehandedly fund the entire maintenance of the ship - he is just an employee, and the financial support of the foundation is needed for maintenance and repairs. Yet if everything must be working perfectly with fully redundant backups for everything, no ship would ever sail. So a calculated decision must be made every time the ship ventures out. The captain does not make those calculated decisions in a vacuum - the safety culture of the overall organization always plays a role in those choices.

This is the kind of stuff that the USCG will probe, and I would be very surprised if the USCG investigation does not reveal other systemic factors that contributed to the root cause, and will thus assign some responsibility to others.
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  #387  
Old 11-06-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
The captain had not some responsibility it has ALL RESPONSABILITY.

He was only there because he decided to be there, in a Hurricane leaving a safe port, where a similar tall ship stayed without any problem.

...

Regards

Paulo
Paulo, which tall ship was in the same port? As I mentioned in a previous post, Picton Castle was in Nova Scotia, roughly 300 miles from New London, CT where the Bounty was. Here is a link with some pictures of a marina in New London after the storm: Hurricane Sandy Leaves New London Shore Pummeled - New London, CT Patch
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  #388  
Old 11-06-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I guess the Captains of those boats, I mean fragile timber relics, also called tall ships, know a lot more than you about that.

At least 4 captains of tall ships come forward saying that they did not understand the Bounty Captain decision to sail away from port to face an Hurricane. One of them had the ship on the same port where Bounty was and the ship did not suffer any damage with the bad weather.
Paulo, I was specifically responding to a post regarding "ships leaving port" and why they might be required to do so.

I did write "Unless it's an extremely well-protected harbour.." (and you say the port HMS Bounty left from was such a harbour), and "..how you handle the ship and where you go after you leave port is another matter entirely."

I'm sorry you did not see that. If it is a safe port of course he should stay.


For example: We have a few cyclone-safe ports and many cyclone-unsafe ports along our coastline. AFAIK, the unsafe ports all require ships to leave if a cyclone is forecast to be travelling in the direction of that port. I was in that situation in a modern ship (well, a steel passenger liner) in 1996 that had to leave port in the face of a Typhoon. One container ship that stayed in harbour sank at it's moorings; all that left survived.
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Last edited by Classic30; 11-06-2012 at 11:49 PM.
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  #389  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Its done like dinner
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  #390  
Old 11-07-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
Good example of a moot point. The helicopter rescue was successful. Everyone on the life rafts was rescued. It's possible the outcome would have been the same in other conditions.
They spotted 16 when they got there and lost two, due to weather.
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