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  #391  
Old 11-07-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by xymotic View Post
They spotted 16 when they got there and lost two, due to weather.
I've never seen any source say that they "spotted 16." I heard that they were told there were 16 on the boat.

Cite your source for this.
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Last edited by TakeFive; 11-07-2012 at 07:49 AM.
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  #392  
Old 11-07-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

I read they were told 17 were aboard when detected 16 heat signatures when on scene
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  #393  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

One additional item that I'ld like to see included in the investagation is detailed interviews with all the naval personnel that were aboard the Bounty for a tour and/or "sail" prior to its departure from New London. At least I thought I read something that said such personnel were aboard. Besides the obvious questions one important question would be discussions(if any) that the navy personnel had with the captain and crew concerning leaving the "safety" of the harbour.
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  #394  
Old 11-07-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by kjango View Post
I read they were told 17 were aboard when detected 16 heat signatures when on scene
This agrees with my recollection - my prior statement the they never said they "spotted 16" is misleading. The reports I saw do say that they found 16 heat signatures on the boat during the initial flyover in the evening, before they abandoned ship. The next morning they came back with the chopper to do the rescue, and when they finished emptying the life rafts there were only 14 rescued. I believe that the crew has stated the three fell overboard when the ship capsized as they were boarding the life rafts, and of those three only one was able to swim to the life raft.
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  #395  
Old 11-07-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
..

The captain cannot singlehandedly fund the entire maintenance of the ship - he is just an employee, and the financial support of the foundation is needed for maintenance and repairs. Yet if everything must be working perfectly with fully redundant backups for everything, no ship would ever sail. So a calculated decision must be made every time the ship ventures out. The captain does not make those calculated decisions in a vacuum - the safety culture of the overall organization always plays a role in those choices.

This is the kind of stuff that the USCG will probe, and I would be very surprised if the USCG investigation does not reveal other systemic factors that contributed to the root cause, and will thus assign some responsibility to others.
Even it the Bounty was a brand new ship in perfect condition it would be always a wrong decision to rake a XVIII years old designed wooden tall ship with auxiliary engines with an hurricane coming and even a worse one sailing in its direction than on the opposite direction.

Regarding the condition of the ship it is a Captain's duty to know the condition of the ship and regarding that condition decide in what conditions the ship would be safely sailed.

In my opinion the Bounty was a fair weather boat, not in a sense that it was not an offshore boat, but in a sense that, like most sailboats, should not be sailed in high latitudes and really bad weather.

Obviously the Captain thought that the Bounty, in the present condition, was a ship able to sail in an hurricane and that's why he chose to sail a hurricane. This is confirmed by what was said by the Captain about the ship: "The Bounty has no boundaries".

This is a ridiculous statement as it was ridiculously dangerous to take that ship to an Hurricane. That was my first conviction but I would not have come forward with this opinion if I didn't see it confirmed by the nautical community, I mean, the professional one.

Going over a natural corporatism defense I had heard several tall ships captains saying he had done very wrong in sailing the boat to an hurricane and dozens of professional sailors practically saying the Captain was crazy and utterly irresponsible. I have not heard a single Captain or professional sailor saying that the captain had done the right thing.

The only one that I saw defending the captain was the owner of the boat, Bounty people and some in this thread, saying that he had done the right thing because it was better in an Hurricane to sail the boat out to sea than staying on the port. Regarding that case the opinion of professional sailor is this one, that seems evident to me, even if I am a newbie compared to them:

It is not because you sail on a 1784 tallship replica that you have to replicate the way they sail in those days and ignore tecnology. Category 2 hurricane Sandy was very well forecasted by the NHC and could not be ignored.


"a ship is safer at sea than in port."


It was not really a matter of laying in port or not. Bounty had amply time to leave and keep Sandy relative position in respect. It was more a question as to which direction to steam after the decision to leave the harbour was taken. At barely six knots ... the only courses that could be recommend are the ones heading to the east and then to the north.



Since Sandy altered its course toward the land instead of out to sea, if Bounty would have kept its original course ... more to the east than to the south ... instead of crossing the hurricane ahead of her path and hoping to fly along a north-eastern gust and against the Gulf Stream, she would have succeeded in her passage.

I have made some plane sailing calculations ...

On Thursday the 25th, Sandy was at more than a 1,000nm away from the Bounty
On Friday the 26th, Sandy was 800nm away
On Saturday the 27th, Sandy was 600nm away
On Sunday the 28th, Sandy was 200nm away
On Monday the 29th, Sandy was 100nm away on a north by east bearing

From the 26th to the 27th, Sandy runned 60nm a day
From the 27th to the 28th, Sandy runned 260nm a day
From the 28th to the 29th, Sandy runned 250nm a day

When Sandy caught the Gulf Stream, she was accelerating its dangerous roar very rapidly to the north ...


The whole vessel at sea is safer then at port thing just comes off as pure dumb fuckery to me. With insurance now a days who should care what happens to a vessel while at the dock? Tie the ****** up and head for the hills. Two people would be alive right now if they used common sense.

Saying "well the U.S. Navy does it" is just another sign of these peoples ignorance. They are in steel hull boats several hundred feet long so yes they can do a lot more damage to the docks and themselves with high water and winds, but they have the sense also to go the complete opposite ******* way of the storm. ...

There is a real purpose and some reasoning to that, but to send people out to potentially save what essentially amounts to a rich mans toy is criminal. How these people in their wooden and plastic toys think they are in the same league as a 500 hundred foot ship is beyond me.

Hell all of us are on vessels that could weather anything worse then these amateur sailors could ever imagine and none of us would have even thought of attempting some of the **** I have seen done by those idiots.
But I've never gotten the fascination the hard core amateur crowd has for saving their toys by putting their lives in danger to do it....


They are sticking like limpets to the idea that the safest place to be in a storm is at sea ... they embrace that dangerous myth and defend their own ignorance based on their short time riding a navy ship before becoming accomplished yachtsmen. I never thought I would ask for the CG to get involved in recreation but the TSC and the toy boat crowd really do need a kick in the ass to move them toward some kind of reality. Bring on the CG dogs and the ambulance chasing lawyers ...

As sorry as I am that Capt Walbridge lost his life on board the Bounty, as a fellow mariner, it doesn't deviate from the fact that seriously bad decisions were made for the Bounty to leave port in the first place when she should have stayed tied up alongside.

No amount of convincing can show me otherwise. However, that dirty deed was done and it just shows how many balls he had had to stand up against his company and refuse the sailing order, if he indeed had to, given that he may well be the one to suggest sailing in the first place and his boss tagged along with his so called professional decision.

Irrespective, I see this as a 'rape of nautical intelligence' and one that has sent the marine community in the US on its head and hopefully a review of its regulations governing Tall Ships and bring them in line with the rest of the marine community.

Clearly there has to be a careful look at how these TS are audited and Classed. For them to sail outside of Near Coastal voyages without all the safety infrastructure that is beneficial to them and what is mandated on other vessels is a sin. ...

If you watch the video interview with the Bounty Captain, and I use that term very loosely, whilst at Belfast, it only clearly shows his level of Nautical competence and professionalism when he comments on the sea conditions and his intentions to get close to the 'eye' of the storm as he tries to ******** his way into the history books. Well he certainly did that without any help from anyone else.

Robin Walbridge is No Master Mariner, he might have the license, but not the skills. He might have the respect from his own crew, but not the professional marine living desire to respect the sea for what it is. And the sea has taken what was not respected.

...

gCaptain - Maritime & Offshore News

Dave asked why I keep posting on this thread. Well, in fact it seems to me that there is still some lack of good sense among some that keep posting. I believe that a forum like sailnet should have also an educational character. Many here, including me, want to learn and use this forum for that.

Look at what I have posted as a small contribute and take into consideration that I am not posting mainly my personal opinion but mostly the opinions of professional sailors that based what I think about this unfortunate tragic accident. I strongly believe they know a lot more than us.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 11-07-2012 at 08:56 AM.
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  #396  
Old 11-07-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
...Going over a natural corporatism defense I had heard several tall ships captains saying he had done very wrong in sailing the boat to an hurricane and dozens of professional sailors practically saying the Captain was crazy and utterly irresponsible....
I guarantee that the USCG investigation will reach conclusions that go deeper than simply saying "the captain was crazy."

What you dismiss as "corporatism" is the essence of root cause analysis.
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  #397  
Old 11-07-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

I agree that the interview should be taken with a big grain of salt. What people say is often not indicative of what they really think. I sensed immediately that there was a large dose of BS in the interview.

The thing that still does not seem to have been picked up on is the draft discrepancy of this boat as compared to the original ship's specs. Both boats drew 13' although the newer version was twice as long. It seems logical that, since they were never going to film the part of the ship that was underwater that maybe it was constructed with half the depth needed to make it stable. I have read it had lead in the bilge but no amount of lead would make up for the lack of hull in the water. It would pretty much just make it unstable and apt to get knocked down much more easily which is what happened. At the very least, it would make sailing close hauled much less efficient.
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  #398  
Old 11-07-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by lancelot9898 View Post
One additional item that I'ld like to see included in the investagation is detailed interviews with all the naval personnel that were aboard the Bounty for a tour and/or "sail" prior to its departure from New London. At least I thought I read something that said such personnel were aboard. Besides the obvious questions one important question would be discussions(if any) that the navy personnel had with the captain and crew concerning leaving the "safety" of the harbour.
And this would be useful why?

We are talking about two very different systems here. A modern USN warship bears little resemblance to a tall ship, even one that's a replica with some 20th century technological modifications.

Other than general impressions, I seriously doubt that an E-5 signalman is going to be able to add anything significant to the investigation.
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  #399  
Old 11-07-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
The only one that I saw defending the captain was the owner of the boat, Bounty people and some in this thread, saying that he had done the right thing because it was better in an Hurricane to sail the boat out to sea than staying on the port
Paulo,

Who specifically said that in this thread? Name them I dont recall anyone saying that but maybe I am wrong

Quote:
Regarding the condition of the ship it is a Captain's duty to know the condition of the ship and regarding that condition decide in what conditions the ship would be safely sailed.
How many times are you going to say this we already know how you feel.

Quote:
When Sandy caught the Gulf Stream, she was accelerating its dangerous roar very rapidly to the north ..PCP.
Wrong again Paulo...the Gulf Stream did not accelerate the storm it doesnt do that. Its the Jet Stream which does this/ The steering currents in the air did this. The blocking high over the Canadian Maritimes moved off the coast and a Canadian front dove down out of central Canada to below Hatteras setting up the perfect storm scenerio. Counter clockwise flow of the hurricane which was now extra tropical added to the SW flow on the backside of the Canadian maritime high accelerated the storm and sent it crashing back into the coast. This flow was historically highly unusual for ANY storm to make such a dramatic left turn. Usually these storms eventually get pushed out to sea and would have bisected any easterly course the Bounty would have taken. Not that she should have been out there in the first place.


Sir,
you keep using this gCaptain site as some sort of gospel or definative subject on the matter.
Actually this site by its own admission is a social media site lets see SN is a social media site, Twitter is a social media site, Facebook is a social media site. Social media sites are full of real expertise and people who prentend to have expertise and people with all kinds of opinions.

I have seen you post on Sailnet a social media site in the politics section and rail on and on about the Ameruican govt and make suggestions and comments like you are an expert with no disclaimer? Now I know you are not an expert in American govt, but that doesnt prevent you from posting your opinion and pretending you are one. It also doesnt prevent some who doesnt know any better from using what you say and quoting it to make a point


This from the gCaptain site you posted
Quote:
Nowhere on the internet however, has more criticism been raised of this event than the gCaptain Forum. With over 20,000 members from around the world, this forum has essentially grown to become the social media platform for the professional maritime industry.
Quote:
Robin Walbridge is No Master Mariner, he might have the license, but not the skillsPCP
Says who....how can you say that... you are qualified to say that because?????????. I think you need to place a disclaimer on your posts like you thought should be put on mine lest some newbie mistake you for an intelligent sailor with experience and follow your lead. I suggest you add something like JulieMor suggested I put which is the following

Quote:
I make the decisions I do and offer advice on Sailnet from the information I have available to me and my own personal experience in sailing. These decisions or advice may not be the best solutions for everyone else.
Personally It is really tiring to me and I bet a few others of us of your continuing to say the same thing over and over again and also present information as fact when it is mearly your opinion or conjecture or something you found in a social media site. Were it not for that and distorions should not go unchallenged I know I would have very few posts on this thread.
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Last edited by chef2sail; 11-07-2012 at 11:19 AM.
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  #400  
Old 11-07-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartley18 View Post
Whilst not all that relevant to the topic at hand, just to clean a few things up:



Teredo worms are still a problem in many parts of the world today, but with the advent of plastic boats you don't hear about it so much - paint can get chipped by anything striking the hull..

FWIW, copper sheeting was installed primarily for it's anti-fouling properties - not worm resistance. Even back then it was prohibitively expensive, so only those who needed it for speed (eg. tea clippers) or could afford it (eg. parts of the navy) used it. Everyone else fixed a thin layer of cheap sacrificial timber to the outside of the hull with hundreds (thousands!) of copper nails. The worms burrow into the outer layer and thus leave the hull alone.


We used to install a shoe on the keels of wood boats to keep the worms out. Toredo worms have never gone away. I guess they just have to find their dinner somewhere else nowadays Copper sheathing also stopped some water ingress as well as keeping the critters out and barnacles off (for a while). One of the methods of keeping a garboard seam from leaking was(is) to run a copper strip from keel/keelson to plank. Makes me remember with fondness what fun wood boats were!
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