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Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > Vessels Lost, Missing, or in Danger
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  #401  
Old 11-07-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

An E-5 signalman may or may no be able to add anything of significance to the investigation, but to ignore any souce of potential information is foolish considiering that they were the last non crew people who was aboard the ship. Interviews can be misleading, but a good investigator should be able to seperate speculation from fact. Not only that I would want interviews with people who worked on repairing the ship a few weeks before. People will be defensive not wanting the blame in anyway associated with them, but IMHO useful information is there if people are willing to talk.
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  #402  
Old 11-07-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
... it seems to be self-contradictory that he would say he's heading for the southeast quadrant on a southbound itinerary. It just does not make sense...
Correct. The use of compass terms here doesn't help pin point the so-called "navigable" semicircle. The SE quadrant is only the area of more favourable, lighter winds/seas in a system heading from east to west (such as a classic hurricane heading across the North Atlantic from Africa to the Caribbean). Another way to describe it for northern latitudes is the left semicircle, looking downstream (ie. located at the storm's centre and looking in the direction the storm is travelling). The so-called "dangerous" semicircle is thus the right semicircle, looking downstream. (Terms taken from: Weather for the Mariner, by William J. Kotsch)

In the case of the Bounty's encounter with Sandy: If the storm was heading north, and the vessel was heading south, the best quadrant to be in would be the SW quadrant. But the problem is how to get there? And is the storm following a consistent track relative to the vessel?

One of the golden rules mentioned by Kotsch is: "Never try to outrun or pass ahead of a hurricane center if there is some other course of action available to you. Chances are you will not make it".

The dilemma facing the ship once they were out there is apparent from looking at the excellent illustration posted by Paulo (PCP) of the converging tracks of Bounty & Sandy [see post #395 above].

On Saturday 27th, the Bounty was northeast of Sandy. But the decision was taken to sail SW, presumably to try to position the vessel in the "navigable" semicircle. This strategy might have succeeded if Sandy had curved further east as it moved north and headed out into the Atlantic, instead of taking a more westerly path. If they were expecting the storm to track out to sea, then by heading further east themselves, they would have been breaking the "don't cross in front of the centre" rule, and would have been heading towards the "dangerous" semicircle. Ironically (and tragically), by heading southwest instead of east they ended up doing what they shouldn't have, and crossed directly in front of the worst of the storm. By Monday 29th they had managed to get into the "navigable" semicircle, but by then the damage had been done and the ship had been mortally wounded.

What knowledge they had of the forecast track of Sandy is as yet unknown. I'm sure it influenced their choice of action on the 27th.

All Kotsch's advice here is directed at a mariner "unavoidably" caught in the path of a storm. This is the crux. "Hopefully, you will have safely moored your craft or evacuated it to a safe haven long before the storm's arrival. Once this is accomplished, do not return to the scene until all danger has past. Remember that weather forecasters are not wizards or magicians. They, too, make mistakes, and allowances should be made for errors in forecasts."
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  #403  
Old 11-07-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

I doubt anyone on SN knows, but it would be interesting to know what the sailing qualities of the Bounty were:

1. Did she normally motor or sail (or motor/sail)?
2. What wind range could she sail effectively?
3. What angle to the wind could she sail (including wind ranges)?
4. What sea state could she effectively handle and what direction?
5. Did she need to use warps, or drouges in a large following sea?
6. What sea state and wind range could she effectively motor upwind?
7. What lee way would she make?

I hope this comes out in the CG report as it seems to have a large bearing on the seaworthness of the ship.

Also, some have posted she should have gone this way or that to avoid the hurricane. That might be possible in a well designed ship or one with adequate auxillary power, but probably not Bounty. From what I have seen and heard, Bounty's fate was probably sealed due to her limited manuverbility in less than favourable sea conditions.

The Capt in the video said "we normaly sail, we are a sailing ship", also stated "engines are under powered for the ship". But apparently we cannot always take the Capt on his word as he says he "chases hurricanes" and some think we cannot take his word on that (joking maybe?).
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  #404  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

I guess I'm seeing Paulo get pushback that is as equally stubborn . If one is to criticize others for falsely hiding behind the desire to learn what happened, then criticism is due as well to hiding behind wanting no more accusation until the government tells us what to think about all this. The government investigation will have its limits, they don't have any interest in every nuance. Only those that involved law and regulation, which don't cover common sense. Stupid is not a crime, but is worth discussing.

I am fine with every expression of opinion here, even the repetitive ones and those I disagree with.
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  #405  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartley18 View Post
Paulo, I was specifically responding to a post regarding "ships leaving port" and why they might be required to do so.

I did write "Unless it's an extremely well-protected harbour.." (and you say the port HMS Bounty left from was such a harbour), and "..how you handle the ship and where you go after you leave port is another matter entirely."

I'm sorry you did not see that. If it is a safe port of course he should stay.


For example: We have a few cyclone-safe ports and many cyclone-unsafe ports along our coastline. AFAIK, the unsafe ports all require ships to leave if a cyclone is forecast to be travelling in the direction of that port. I was in that situation in a modern ship (well, a steel passenger liner) in 1996 that had to leave port in the face of a Typhoon. One container ship that stayed in harbour sank at it's moorings; all that left survived.
Things may be different here in the United States. I know of no port where you would be forced to leave if a hurricane or Tsunami were forcast.

Here in Hawaii I keep my boat at a state owned harbor. The Coast Guard or harbor master would never order the harbor cleared due to a hurricane or Tsunami.

The Coast Guard does make a recommendation during Tsunami warnings that your boat should go at least 3 miles off shore to prevent damage, however you are not forced out. During the past two years I have taken my boat out in the middle of the night during a Tsunami warning (once during the Japan Tsunami of 2011 and once a couple weeks ago- the first evac saved my boat, and half the boat dock was destroyed). When I am preparing for Tsunami evacuation, I go alone as I do not want to put someone else in harms way. I also weigh the condition of my boat engine, and the sea state and wind strength. I try to minimize the chance of needing a CG rescue, especially in the middle of a potential Tsunami. If I think by boat is not up to the task of an evac, I would leave her tied tight to the pier to ride it out as best she could.
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  #406  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

I have been at marinas that absolutely required you to leave during tropical events. They were protecting their assets. However, I've never heard of an entire harbor being off limits.

If one thought they were safer at sea on any boat, I have to believe you would be safer yet in finding a spot up the Narragansett than 90 miles off Hatteras.

Seriously, there is no way they head South because it was the safest choice. If they wanted off the dock, it wasn't a close call on taking other options for safety of the ship, let alone crew.
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  #407  
Old 11-07-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Some marinas have it in their contracts that you need to get off the dock in the event of a named storm. I don't blame them a bit. Extending this to include a 190' tall ship is really like comparing different fruits. I wondered why, from the beginning, he did not make for New Bedford, within a day sail from New London, behind the surge gates. New Bedford is used to having large commercial fishing vessels in there and in fact played host to many a tall ship during the whaling era (see Herman Melville:-). Even if he had to drop the hook in the middle of NB harbor, he would have been relatively safe. As far as up in the Narragansett, I can't really think of a spot where he could have had any confidence of finding a good hurricane spot for a vessel that big. Maybe right in Newport Harbor but it was probably jammed with boats looking for shelter.
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  #408  
Old 11-07-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
I am fine with every expression of opinion here, even the repetitive ones and those I disagree with-Minniewasks
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Thats fine. Shouldnt this be doneJuliemor requested and many of you agreed or said you "liked" with some sort of disclaimer so the newbies realize its an opinion not fact. Or was that only for me. What was suggested for me should be good enough for others I would think

Quote:
"I make the decisions I do and offer advice on Sailnet from the information I have available to me and my own personal experience in sailing. These decisions or advice may not be the best solutions for everyone else.
I also am not sure some of the posters know the difference between fact and opinion. Statements from an eyewitness can be a fact, statements from someone on a social media site are opinions. When posted theyt should no be stated as fact.

I see a lot of opinions posted here, very few facts as of yet. Constantly saying exactly the same thing smacks of someone trying to force their opinion down your throat,
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  #409  
Old 11-07-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by smurphny View Post
We used to install a shoe on the keels of wood boats to keep the worms out. Toredo worms have never gone away. I guess they just have to find their dinner somewhere else nowadays Copper sheathing also stopped some water ingress as well as keeping the critters out and barnacles off (for a while). One of the methods of keeping a garboard seam from leaking was(is) to run a copper strip from keel/keelson to plank. Makes me remember with fondness what fun wood boats were!
Sounds like you've forgotten the half of it - whilst I'm still learning!!
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  #410  
Old 11-07-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

I actually tried the copper-strip-over-garboard method on an old 30s vintage Richardson. It actually worked really well. Never lost the garboard caulking again. The problem with it is that during the winter, when blocked up, the copper holds moisture in and rot becomes a problem. For old, oil saturated garboard seams it does work.
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