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  #421  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
(snip) Evidently if you have only one generator operational you have no redundance and no back up if that generator gets out of order...and that's exactly what happened. Is this not clear to you

OMG, so sorry Paolo, we had no idea that you were actually ON THE BOUNTY, and are really one of the survinving crew members that said they would not make any statements at this time, so you are posting here under an alias so your mates won't know you're talking when you said you wouldn't.

THAT is how you know "exactly what happened".
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  #422  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Your hysteria in you posts is self serving and insulting to others with oppoiste opinions.


I demand an apology!!!!

You are attributing me opinions and quoting them as if I had said them or were mine and that is false. I never said that.

Those were opinions from professional sailors on a forum for professional that I quoted and I made very clear that I was quoting them. In fact I attribute a lot more weight to the opinion of professionals or opinions of Captains of tall ships than to your opinion but that does not give you the right to attribute me false statements. He live in a state of law and here as in US attributing false declarations to another person is punishable by law not to mention that is very low and very wrong.

Last edited by PCP; 11-07-2012 at 06:07 PM.
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  #423  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Even it the Bounty was a brand new ship in perfect condition it would be always a wrong decision to rake a XVIII years old designed wooden tall ship with auxiliary engines with an hurricane coming and even a worse one sailing in its direction than on the opposite direction.-Opinion

Regarding the condition of the ship it is a Captain's duty to know the condition of the ship and regarding that condition decide in what conditions the ship would be safely sailed.

In my opinion the Bounty was a fair weather boat, not in a sense that it was not an offshore boat, but in a sense that, like most sailboats, should not be sailed in high latitudes and really bad weather.

Quote:
Obviously the Captain thought that the Bounty, in the present condition, was a ship able to sail in an hurricane and that's why he chose to sail a hurricane. This is confirmed by what was said by the Captain about the ship: "The Bounty has no boundaries".
- how do you know what he meant- OPINION

This is a ridiculous statement as it was ridiculously dangerous to take that ship to an Hurricane. That was my first conviction but I would not have come forward with this opinion if I didn't see it confirmed by the nautical community, I mean, the professional one.

Quote:
Going over a natural corporatism defense I had heard several tall ships captains saying he had done very wrong in sailing the boat to an hurricane and dozens of professional sailors practically saying the Captain was crazy and utterly irresponsible. I have not heard a single Captain or professional sailor saying that the captain had done the right thing.
- Opinion and lie. You got this from a social media site

Quote:
The only one that I saw defending the captain was the owner of the boat, Bounty people and some in this thread, saying that he had done the right thing because it was better in an Hurricane to sail the boat out to sea than staying on the port. Regarding that case the opinion of professional sailor is this one, that seems evident to me, even if I am a newbie compared to them
: Lie. You have been asked to suplly who said this

It is not because you sail on a 1784 tallship replica that you have to replicate the way they sail in those days and ignore tecnology. Category 2 hurricane Sandy was very well forecasted by the NHC and could not be ignored
"a ship is safer at sea than in port."


It was not really a matter of laying in port or not. Bounty had amply time to leave and keep Sandy relative position in respect. It was more a question as to which direction to steam after the decision to leave the harbour was taken. At barely six knots ... the only courses that could be recommend are the ones heading to the east and then to the north.



Quote:
Since Sandy altered its course toward the land instead of out to sea, if Bounty would have kept its original course ... more to the east than to the south ... instead of crossing the hurricane ahead of her path and hoping to fly along a north-eastern gust and against the Gulf Stream, she would have succeeded in her passage.
miscalculation you cant predict hurricanesI have made some plane sailing calculations ...

On Thursday the 25th, Sandy was at more than a 1,000nm away from the Bounty
On Friday the 26th, Sandy was 800nm away
On Saturday the 27th, Sandy was 600nm away
On Sunday the 28th, Sandy was 200nm away
On Monday the 29th, Sandy was 100nm away on a north by east bearing

From the 26th to the 27th, Sandy runned 60nm a day
From the 27th to the 28th, Sandy runned 260nm a day
From the 28th to the 29th, Sandy runned 250nm a day

Quote:
When Sandy caught the Gulf Stream, she was accelerating its dangerous roar very rapidly to the north ...
Lie
The whole vessel at sea is safer then at port thing just comes off as pure dumb fuckery to me. With insurance now a days who should care what happens to a vessel while at the dock? Tie the ****** up and head for the hills.
Quote:
Two people would be alive right now if they used common sense.
Opinion
Quote:
Saying "well the U.S. Navy does it" is just another sign of these peoples ignorance. They are in steel hull boats several hundred feet long so yes they can do a lot more damage to the docks and themselves with high water and winds, but they have the sense also to go the complete opposite ******* way of the storm. ...
Lie...they went across the front of the storm east out to see....they actually crossed the T when the ssteamed out of Norfolk

There is a real purpose and some reasoning to that, but to send people out to potentially save what essentially amounts to a rich mans toy is criminal. How these people in their wooden and plastic toys think they are in the same league as a 500 hundred foot ship is beyond me.

Hell all of us are on vessels that could weather anything worse then these amateur sailors could ever imagine and none of us would have even thought of attempting some of the **** I have seen done by those idiots.
But I've never gotten the fascination the hard core amateur crowd has for saving their toys by putting their lives in danger to do it....

Quote:
They are sticking like limpets to the idea that the safest place to be in a storm is at sea ... they embrace that dangerous myth and defend their own ignorance based on their short time riding a navy ship before becoming accomplished yachtsmen. I never thought I would ask for the CG to get involved in recreation but the TSC and the toy boat crowd really do need a kick in the ass to move them toward some kind of reality. Bring on the CG dogs and the ambulance chasing lawyers ...
The CG are dogs?

As sorry as I am that Capt Walbridge lost his life on board the Bounty, as a fellow mariner, it doesn't deviate from the fact that seriously bad decisions were made for the Bounty to leave port in the first place when she should have stayed tied up alongside.

No amount of convincing can show me otherwise. However, that dirty deed was done and it just shows how many balls he had had to stand up against his company and refuse the sailing order, if he indeed had to, given that he may well be the one to suggest sailing in the first place and his boss tagged along with his so called professional decision.

Quote:
Irrespective, I see this as a 'rape of nautical intelligence' and one that has sent the marine community in the US on its head and hopefully a review of its regulations governing Tall Ships and bring them in line with the rest of the marine community.
- Opinion

Clearly there has to be a careful look at how these TS are audited and Classed. For them to sail outside of Near Coastal voyages without all the safety infrastructure that is beneficial to them and what is mandated on other vessels is a sin. ...

Quote:
If you watch the video interview with the Bounty Captain, and I use that term very loosely, whilst at Belfast, it only clearly shows his level of Nautical competence and professionalism when he comments on the sea conditions and his intentions to get close to the 'eye' of the storm as he tries to ******** his way into the history books.
Lie
Well he certainly did that without any help from anyone else.

Quote:
Robin Walbridge is No Master Mariner, he might have the license, but not the skills. He might have the respect from his own crew, but not the professional marine living desire to respect the sea for what it is. And the sea has taken what was not respected.
Lie and un concioanable statement

...

gCaptain - Maritime & Offshore News

Dave asked why I keep posting on this thread. Well, in fact it seems to me that there is still some lack of good sense among some that keep posting. I believe that a forum like sailnet should have also an educational character. Many here, including me, want to learn and use this forum for that.

Look at what I have posted as a small contribute and
Quote:
take into consideration that I am not posting mainly my personal opinion but mostly the opinions of professional sailors that based what I think about this unfortunate tragic accident.
I strongly believe they know a lot more than us. Lie

Regards

Paulo


Fact checking shows this one statement is rife with opinions presented as facts as well as outright lies
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  #424  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
I think I will annoint myself the "fact checker" like the networks had for the campaign. Just for this thread though as it could become a full time job I fear
Some friendly advice..... no one likes the fact checker guy in a conversation. Let it go. People exaggerate.

You can't have it both ways. Wait for the investigation, but I'll investigate whatever you say while we wait?

I still support Paulo's opinion and right to have one. In the end, I think his perspective is going to be much closer to the truth, whether one likes the way it was presented or not. I have no expectation that the USCG is going to even attempt to resolve all the issues we've been discussing or analyzing.

While still incomplete, I've read Bounty's website, seen the facts on the weather, their course, heard the interview of the crew and more. There is a ton of damning evidence and nearly no evidence that offers any mitigating perspective. The mitigating theories, in fact, have been pure speculation without any corroboration so far. Such as suggesting the potential that he might have been forced to go. And, should that become true, there is still a good conversation to be had around whether it should have made any difference.

I only wish this was taking place at a bar.
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  #425  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by smurphny View Post
This is a pretty damning piece concerning the ship's condition:HMS Bounty sinking to be investigated; victim was 'very concerned' - latimes.com
It's damning if you read into the words of an admittedly mechanically-challenged person who said "ther are always stewing over them (the generators and engines)." I can't tell you the number of times I've been working on a piece of equipment and have somebody come up to me and ask "What's wrong with it?" or "What happened to it?" The average non-mechanically inclined person has no idea what preventive maintenance is. They understand it as applied to their car - and ususall then only to the extent of that mandated by the manufacturer.

If you read the WHOLE article you linked to, you'll see that they reported that the Coast Guard inspected the ship just a few weeks ago, when it underwent maintenance in Maine, and that prior deficiencies (old charts) had been corrected at that time.
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  #426  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

The statements falsely attributed to me where taken from this post (pag 40, post 395).

I say clearly:

Regarding that case the opinion of professional sailor is this one, that seems evident to me, even if I am a newbie compared to them:

then I quote at blue and in the end I have posted the link from where all those quotes were taken:

gCaptain - Maritime & Offshore News

I only say that I agree with them, obviously not phrase by phrase but globally in regards what they are sayng.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Even it the Bounty was a brand new ship in perfect condition it would be always a wrong decision to rake a XVIII years old designed wooden tall ship with auxiliary engines with an hurricane coming and even a worse one sailing in its direction than on the opposite direction.

Regarding the condition of the ship it is a Captain's duty to know the condition of the ship and regarding that condition decide in what conditions the ship would be safely sailed.

In my opinion the Bounty was a fair weather boat, not in a sense that it was not an offshore boat, but in a sense that, like most sailboats, should not be sailed in high latitudes and really bad weather.

Obviously the Captain thought that the Bounty, in the present condition, was a ship able to sail in an hurricane and that's why he chose to sail a hurricane. This is confirmed by what was said by the Captain about the ship: "The Bounty has no boundaries".

This is a ridiculous statement as it was ridiculously dangerous to take that ship to an Hurricane. That was my first conviction but I would not have come forward with this opinion if I didn't see it confirmed by the nautical community, I mean, the professional one.

Going over a natural corporatism defense I had heard several tall ships captains saying he had done very wrong in sailing the boat to an hurricane and dozens of professional sailors practically saying the Captain was crazy and utterly irresponsible. I have not heard a single Captain or professional sailor saying that the captain had done the right thing.

The only one that I saw defending the captain was the owner of the boat, Bounty people and some in this thread, saying that he had done the right thing because it was better in an Hurricane to sail the boat out to sea than staying on the port. Regarding that case the opinion of professional sailor is this one, that seems evident to me, even if I am a newbie compared to them:

It is not because you sail on a 1784 tallship replica that you have to replicate the way they sail in those days and ignore tecnology. Category 2 hurricane Sandy was very well forecasted by the NHC and could not be ignored.


"a ship is safer at sea than in port."


It was not really a matter of laying in port or not. Bounty had amply time to leave and keep Sandy relative position in respect. It was more a question as to which direction to steam after the decision to leave the harbour was taken. At barely six knots ... the only courses that could be recommend are the ones heading to the east and then to the north.



Since Sandy altered its course toward the land instead of out to sea, if Bounty would have kept its original course ... more to the east than to the south ... instead of crossing the hurricane ahead of her path and hoping to fly along a north-eastern gust and against the Gulf Stream, she would have succeeded in her passage.

I have made some plane sailing calculations ...

On Thursday the 25th, Sandy was at more than a 1,000nm away from the Bounty
On Friday the 26th, Sandy was 800nm away
On Saturday the 27th, Sandy was 600nm away
On Sunday the 28th, Sandy was 200nm away
On Monday the 29th, Sandy was 100nm away on a north by east bearing

From the 26th to the 27th, Sandy runned 60nm a day
From the 27th to the 28th, Sandy runned 260nm a day
From the 28th to the 29th, Sandy runned 250nm a day

When Sandy caught the Gulf Stream, she was accelerating its dangerous roar very rapidly to the north ...


The whole vessel at sea is safer then at port thing just comes off as pure dumb fuckery to me. With insurance now a days who should care what happens to a vessel while at the dock? Tie the ****** up and head for the hills. Two people would be alive right now if they used common sense.

Saying "well the U.S. Navy does it" is just another sign of these peoples ignorance. They are in steel hull boats several hundred feet long so yes they can do a lot more damage to the docks and themselves with high water and winds, but they have the sense also to go the complete opposite ******* way of the storm. ...

There is a real purpose and some reasoning to that, but to send people out to potentially save what essentially amounts to a rich mans toy is criminal. How these people in their wooden and plastic toys think they are in the same league as a 500 hundred foot ship is beyond me.

Hell all of us are on vessels that could weather anything worse then these amateur sailors could ever imagine and none of us would have even thought of attempting some of the **** I have seen done by those idiots.
But I've never gotten the fascination the hard core amateur crowd has for saving their toys by putting their lives in danger to do it....


They are sticking like limpets to the idea that the safest place to be in a storm is at sea ... they embrace that dangerous myth and defend their own ignorance based on their short time riding a navy ship before becoming accomplished yachtsmen. I never thought I would ask for the CG to get involved in recreation but the TSC and the toy boat crowd really do need a kick in the ass to move them toward some kind of reality. Bring on the CG dogs and the ambulance chasing lawyers ...

As sorry as I am that Capt Walbridge lost his life on board the Bounty, as a fellow mariner, it doesn't deviate from the fact that seriously bad decisions were made for the Bounty to leave port in the first place when she should have stayed tied up alongside.

No amount of convincing can show me otherwise. However, that dirty deed was done and it just shows how many balls he had had to stand up against his company and refuse the sailing order, if he indeed had to, given that he may well be the one to suggest sailing in the first place and his boss tagged along with his so called professional decision.

Irrespective, I see this as a 'rape of nautical intelligence' and one that has sent the marine community in the US on its head and hopefully a review of its regulations governing Tall Ships and bring them in line with the rest of the marine community.

Clearly there has to be a careful look at how these TS are audited and Classed. For them to sail outside of Near Coastal voyages without all the safety infrastructure that is beneficial to them and what is mandated on other vessels is a sin. ...

If you watch the video interview with the Bounty Captain, and I use that term very loosely, whilst at Belfast, it only clearly shows his level of Nautical competence and professionalism when he comments on the sea conditions and his intentions to get close to the 'eye' of the storm as he tries to ******** his way into the history books. Well he certainly did that without any help from anyone else.

Robin Walbridge is No Master Mariner, he might have the license, but not the skills. He might have the respect from his own crew, but not the professional marine living desire to respect the sea for what it is. And the sea has taken what was not respected.

...

gCaptain - Maritime & Offshore News

Dave asked why I keep posting on this thread. Well, in fact it seems to me that there is still some lack of good sense among some that keep posting. I believe that a forum like sailnet should have also an educational character. Many here, including me, want to learn and use this forum for that.

Look at what I have posted as a small contribute and take into consideration that I am not posting mainly my personal opinion but mostly the opinions of professional sailors that based what I think about this unfortunate tragic accident. I strongly believe they know a lot more than us.

Regards

Paulo
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  #427  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
I only wish this was taking place at a bar
.

Me too

He has his right to an opinion. He has his right to post what he wants in an appropriate manner without all the boldened letters and heightened font which etiquette uimplys he is shouting us down. He has the right to not listen to others. I will also fight for his right to post what he wants.

He does not have the right to call opinions facts however. We are all so worried newbies will endanger themselves by following what they see here, it is important they know what are facts...and what are opinions.

Now he demands an apology for someone else posting their opinions

Too funny
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Paulo,

Please post your stuff in normal font.. Once in a while using bold or larger font or colors is normal. Internet etiquette usually is that when someone posts entire posts or whole paragraphs in enlarged fonts its like you were shouting at them in real life.

I say this because it is possible that you dont know this not to incite you. If you continue as you have I will just assume it is because you wish to be disrespectful.

dave
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  #429  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartley18 View Post
Looking at Paulo's diagram (thanks Paulo!), if they were already in a secure port it makes absolutely no sense to me why they would leave..

..unless they had a schedule to meet and, guessing they would be delayed for many days by the storm and the clean-up operations if they waited where they were, the Captain thought he could make it...
We have the benefit of hindsight to know what was and what wasn't a secure port. When the Bounty left New London, CT on Thursday 10/25 the storm was near Cuba. There was no way to know where it would make landfall, predictions were anywhere from NC to southern Maine.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brewgyver View Post
OMG, so sorry Paolo, we had no idea that you were actually ON THE BOUNTY, and are really one of the survinving crew members that said they would not make any statements at this time, so you are posting here under an alias so your mates won't know you're talking when you said you wouldn't.

THAT is how you know "exactly what happened".
I never said I knew what happened. only said that in my opinion and in the opinion of professional sailors (that I quoted) and from professional tall ship captains(that I quoted too) the captain should not have leaved port and went to a hurricane pass. Of course this is an opinion but I weight in a completely different weight my opinions or any other from amateur sailors compared with the opinions of tall ship Captains or professional sailors.

I did not certainly attributed false statements to nobody.

Regarding the Bounty having only a generator working that information was given to gCaptain sailor forum (professional sailors) by someone from the Bounty, not necessarily the crew. I posted with good faith but I admit that we don't know if that was true or not, even if I cannot see any reason to lie. The only thing we know is that in the opinion of the dead crew member they were not reliable and the crew were constantly messing around with them.

We now also that the boat sunk because it had the generators out of order and given the absence of diesel powered generators was not able to take out the water that the boat was making.

We know also that the boat had been already in a similar situation in a storm, I mean making water with the generators out of service, without other type of auxiliary pups and did not sunk because the CG was able to deliver some portable diesel water that were able to compensate the water ingress.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 11-07-2012 at 07:17 PM.
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